Single Position or View

[BDH]

IPSC 2001 Edition

1.2.1.2 "not allow more than 9 rounds to be fired from any single position or view."

IPSC 2004 Edition

1.2.1.2 "not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view"

USPSA 14th Edition

US 1.2.1 "not require more than eight (8) rounds to be fired from any one position".

Okay, here is your COF..... you have shots at T1-T4 through a port (8 rounds), then you need to engage T5-T6 (4 rounds). The catch is that by simply pivoting at the waist (IOW, never moving your feet) you can engage T5-T6.

Is this a legal COF under the rules? Seems like it would be a different 'view' under IPSC rules, but is it a different 'position' under USPSA rules?

[Paul B]

Do we know the whole story? If T5 and T6 can be shot from another position (with other targets) then this design should be fine. Just because you can shoot more than 8 rounds from one position it doesn't mean you are "required" to by the course.

If these are the only targets in the stage and there are no advantages to moving (a way to shoot the last 2 targets from a better position) then I would say it violates the rules. I think a postion change should involve moving your feet.

An example might be the first 4 targets in the open through an upper port with only the "heads" of the last 2 available (and far enough away to be challenging) but with T5 and T6 fully available from a prone port. This could be at the same "place" but your feet would have to move to go prone.

My 2 pesos.

[Nik Habicht]

Or as Phil Strader so helpfully pointed out at last year's Mid-Atlantic Sectional on one stage you had to engage three close targets but could also engage two more far away targets, thereby saving yourself a few steps at the end of the stage (where those targets were again visible), and in the ten round divisions a potentially close to standing reload....

[Flexmoney]

BDH,

In the 14th edition, I think we had some good back-and-forth on here one time. The point of concern was the definition of position.

There was support that standing, seated, kneeling and prone were positions. And, I believe that we* settled on another definition of "position" ...taking a step.

That would likely account for the change in wording, in the new book, to "...single location or view".

I am curious that you didn't include the full text of the rule(s) you are questioning?

Was/is there another physical position in this stage, or is that it?

From a stage design perspective, if that is it, then I'd call that poor design (legal or not). My personal little test is to pretend I have an 8 round mag, then see if I have to do a standing reload.

I'll see if I can dig up the old thread.

* for whatever that is worth

[Flexmoney]

Here is one thread (but not the original):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...294&hl=position

This thread deals directly with the topic:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...706&hl=position

Here is a thread with me asking exactly the same question (though rather poorly worded on my part):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...727&hl=position

[BDH]

All, my bad (should have used the search function.... but who would have thought anyone would start a thread about shooting 'positions'? ). Anyway, since I did start this, I'll answer the questions/clarifications posed.....

1) This is a portion of a stage.

2) T5 and T6 can be shot from another position, and would be easier shots if you moved closer to them.

3) This description does not require the shots to be taken from one position (but it does offer the shots if you want to take them).

4) I was simply being lazy on not typing out the entire rule. I think I grabbed the portion of the rule that applies.

Kyle, thanks for doing my work and digging up the pertinent threads for me. Also, I tend to agree with you on your eight round mag test, and I try to put at least a step in-between positions to allow for a reload. However, thinking back through this, my real question was 'is keeping your feet in one place, and turning at the hips changing positions, and staying inside the USPSA rules?'

Using the IPSC rules (specifically, change of view), this appears okay. However, using the USPSA rules, I am not so sure. I can't wait to see the new rulebook, and how it defines some of these things.

[Flexmoney]

As long as the "more than 8" shots are available elsewhere in the stage, the stage should be legal, right?

Whether it is good stage design could be another issue.

However, thinking back through this, my real question was 'is keeping your feet in one place, and turning at the hips changing positions, and staying inside the USPSA rules?'

I don't see that as a change in position (in my opinion). I don't see it as a "rulebook" change in position, nor do I see it as a practical change in position. Again...just my opinion.

[BDH]

I don't see that as a change in position (in my opinion).  I don't see it as a "rulebook" change in position, nor do I see it as a practical change in position.  Again...just my opinion.

Kyle,

Understood (and agreed). However, it clearly would be a change of view and be okay under IPSC rules. What really prompted this post was a discussion a couple of years ago between me and a couple of RM's during some final stage 'tweaking'. Need I say more?

No need to continue the discussion as I think we are on the same page. I'll just wait for my new rulebook to show up!

[mactiger]

Well, Brian, I can't send you a new rulebook, but here's the deal: there is no difference between the IPSC and USPSA rules regarding this particular issue, AFAICT. Therefore, if you have to twist at the hips in order to "view" the targets, it's a legal stage. Not great course design, but legal per the rules.

Hope this helps. I'd have replied sooner, but I was tied to the whipping post...er, no, I was just at work.

Troy

[BDH]

Well, Brian, I can't send you a new rulebook, but here's the deal:  there is no difference between the IPSC and USPSA rules regarding this particular issue, AFAICT.  Therefore, if you have to twist at the hips in order to "view" the targets, it's a legal stage.  Not great course design, but legal per the rules. 

Hope this helps.  I'd have replied sooner, but I was tied to the whipping post...er, no, I was just at work. 

Troy

Troy,

Based on the current rules, it sure seems as if there is a difference...... IPSC = single location or view, while USPSA = any one position. Am I missing something here, or are you considering the proposed USPSA rules??

Also, I fully agree that this is not a great stage design. More of a hypothetical question than anything else (plus I have what I think will be a pretty nasty little stage in the back of my head, and I needed to clarify how the rules define 'position').

[Flexmoney]

Get that sucker out of your head and onto paper...then send it to Tom Rayner. There may still be time to get it into the Buckeye Blast.

(It is good to have you back. Especially in the rules section...it's nice to smack the rule questions around a bit and see what happens.)

[BDH]

Get that sucker out of your head and onto paper...then send it to Tom Rayner.  There may still be time to get it into the Buckeye Blast.

(It is good to have you back.  Especially in the rules section...it's nice to smack the rule questions around a bit and see what happens.)

You'll probably see it at the May MRP match, IF I can come up with enough drop turners. Heh, heh, heh....

[mactiger]

Under the current rules, "position" is pretty much open to interpretation. By the definition, I suppose it would be any "different" spot from which you might shoot. I think the new rules clear this up a bit by adding "view", which might mean that you don't necessarily have to move your feet, but must move something in order to see and shoot at different targets. I'm sure this will be open to wide interpretation though. The main point is that you don't want to build in an 18 round "sweet spot", or let the competitors skip all the ports between the start and finish of a course by making all the targets available at each end.

Troy