GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 (edited) Right. Chamber flag is a DQ. Other than a chamber flag..... Edited May 6, 2011 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 IF one allows anything in the chamber, sooner or later we will have a loaded round in the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 IF one allows anything in the chamber, sooner or later we will have a loaded round in the chamber. FAIL! Check your rule book..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 It is not always prohibited to have a loaded weapon when not ordered by the RO.....AND, it is not a DQ to have it so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 So, you guys are gonna DQ anybody, anytime you find they have something in the chamber, other than at MR.... Grumpy -- yes. I would cite both rules 10.5.12 and 10.5.13. There is a definition of loaded gun in the Glossary. There is no definition for dummy round in the glossary, or in any of the official rule interpretations on the website. Rule 2.4.2 (which refers back to 10.5.12) comes closest to providing some clarification. If this is not the shooter's first stage, then the presumption is that it was the shooter's responsibility to clear the gun on the previous stage. (See 8.3.6 and 8.3.7) One of two things occurred: Either the shooter didn't clear the gun on the previous stage -- 10.5.13 applies -- or the shooter inserted an empty case into the gun in a safety area, in which case 10.5.12 applies. Either way, the end result is the same.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 It is not always prohibited to have a loaded weapon when not ordered by the RO.....AND, it is not a DQ to have it so.... Huh? Just what are you thinking of here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 So, you guys are gonna DQ anybody, anytime you find they have something in the chamber, other than at MR.... Not just "anytime", but.....especially at MR. I think this discussion started with what happens at MR (right?). There have been some extreme examples given, like someone racking a rock out of their chamber at MR. I think those were just that....extreme examples, to make a point. I honestly don't think I'd burn someone for having a pebble in their chamber fly out at MR, even in the extreme unlikelihood that an extractor could grab it and send it in my direction. I sincerely hope I would be able to recognize a rock thrown at my head by your pistol. Hard-found experience with my ex-wives has given me some basis in seeing and ducking from those things. However, anything that resembles a round of ammunition, whether an otherwise empty case or a case with a pill stuck in the end of it, I'm not accepting the responsibility of determining it's "inertness" while it's flying past my head. If I see anything that even remotely resembles a loaded round, that competitor is gone from that match unless an Arb committee sees fit to restore them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 IF one allows anything in the chamber, sooner or later we will have a loaded round in the chamber. FAIL! Check your rule book..... Jim's read the rulebook a few times. He's right on the principle -- chamber's need to be empty, when the competitor isn't operating between "Make Ready" and "Range is clear." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 (edited) It is not always prohibited to have a loaded weapon when not ordered by the RO.....AND, it is not a DQ to have it so.... I'm guessing Grumpy is looking at this: 2.5 Unloading/Loading Station 2.5.1 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone. 2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the provisions of Rule 10.5.13. Edited May 6, 2011 by ima45dv8 corrected formatting of quoted text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 So, you guys are gonna DQ anybody, anytime you find they have something in the chamber, other than at MR.... Why do you say "other than at MR"? Do you mean after MR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 It is not always prohibited to have a loaded weapon when not ordered by the RO.....AND, it is not a DQ to have it so.... I'm guessing Grumpy is looking at this: 2.5 Unloading/Loading Station 2.5.1 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone. 2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the provisions of Rule 10.5.13. 2.5.2 Bingo! We have a winner! Imagine this scenario, if you please. We have a LE who is going to shoot in the match, he's currently on duty, and running late for the match. He calls ahead, gets a friend to sign him in and pay, and tells his friend to put him as the last shooter on the last squad. He shows up, just as his name is being called to come to the line, wearing his duty rig, which is still loaded. The first RO (or match official) he comes in contact with is the RO who is running the stage he's supposed to be shooting. He's already got a hot gun, standing in front of the RO, and the rules clearly state that he can't be DQ'ed. So, does he unload, then MR and load again? Or are you just gonna let him fly from there. At any rate, there are exceptions to every rule...and, IMO, that is the point Amidon was trying to make, although he didn't say it like that. My point through this entire thing was, we can't just pay attention to only the rules that we think apply to us as shooters, but the entire set of rules as a whole. Yes, the rules say you can't have anything in your gun...in the safety area...but it doesn't state that you can't have an empty case in your gun at MR....And, by everyone quoting the safety area rules about empty cases being dummy rounds, I suggest that you also not put any empty cases in your front pocket in you are shooting SS or Production, because by your definition, that will move you to open.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 The LEO in your example damn sure better tell me he is hot before I say MR. If he does not, DQ. He has a LOT of explaining to do... And just so you are sure here, a piece of empty brass in the gun IS a loaded gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 The above is NOT the scenario that is being addressed throughout the rest of the thread. It is a very narrow situation and it need not be an LE if you happen to be in a Carry State. What we are talking about is a person who has a chambered 'round', the definitions of what is not allowed have been reprinted in this thread several times. When a person carrying a firearm, loaded, shows up at a match he is to proceed to the unloading station first and unload. If there is no unloading station he is to find an RO who will take him to an appropriate place and unload him. the situation you are describing is this, it is not a person arriving at a stage and having a 'insert item here' pop out at MR. This person did NOT approach the RO and state I have just arrived, you do not have and unloading station and I am carrying, please unload me, as did your LE, he came up to the stage and at MR a round, empty, dummy whatever came out, sorry, he is not operating within the very narrow execption stated by you above. He is DQ'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 So, you guys are gonna DQ anybody, anytime you find they have something in the chamber, other than at MR.... Why do you say "other than at MR"? Do you mean after MR? After MR would DQ everyone trying to shoot a match.....As they have loaded their weapon to shoot the stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 So, you guys are gonna DQ anybody, anytime you find they have something in the chamber, other than at MR.... Why do you say "other than at MR"? Do you mean after MR? After MR would DQ everyone trying to shoot a match.....As they have loaded their weapon to shoot the stage... If anything pops out at MR, you are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 So, you guys are gonna DQ anybody, anytime you find they have something in the chamber, other than at MR.... Why do you say "other than at MR"? Do you mean after MR? After MR would DQ everyone trying to shoot a match.....As they have loaded their weapon to shoot the stage... If anything pops out at MR, you are done. I notice you said "at" this time, instead of after..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 So, you guys are gonna DQ anybody, anytime you find they have something in the chamber, other than at MR.... Why do you say "other than at MR"? Do you mean after MR? After MR would DQ everyone trying to shoot a match.....As they have loaded their weapon to shoot the stage... If anything pops out at MR, you are done. I notice you said "at" this time, instead of after..... Typo. At, after, before, during, you pick it. DONE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Why would the previous RO not have utilized a "squib rod" to knock the spent case out? As a Competitor is not allowed to leave a course of fire with a loaded gun. There is a sentence in the rule permitting competitor to leave stage with a loaded gun if specifically directed by RO. I saw cases whe it was not possible to disassemble the gun, becaus round got stuck in the chamber. They had to case it and sent to gunsmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 It is not always prohibited to have a loaded weapon when not ordered by the RO.....AND, it is not a DQ to have it so.... I'm guessing Grumpy is looking at this: 2.5 Unloading/Loading Station 2.5.1 If it is possible that some competitors arriving at a range where a USPSA match is being held may be in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers, persons duly authorized to carry a loaded firearm, etc.), match organizers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it must include a suitable impact zone. 2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the provisions of Rule 10.5.13. 2.5.2 Bingo! We have a winner! Imagine this scenario, if you please. We have a LE who is going to shoot in the match, he's currently on duty, and running late for the match. He calls ahead, gets a friend to sign him in and pay, and tells his friend to put him as the last shooter on the last squad. He shows up, just as his name is being called to come to the line, wearing his duty rig, which is still loaded. The first RO (or match official) he comes in contact with is the RO who is running the stage he's supposed to be shooting. He's already got a hot gun, standing in front of the RO, and the rules clearly state that he can't be DQ'ed. So, does he unload, then MR and load again? Or are you just gonna let him fly from there. At any rate, there are exceptions to every rule...and, IMO, that is the point Amidon was trying to make, although he didn't say it like that. My point through this entire thing was, we can't just pay attention to only the rules that we think apply to us as shooters, but the entire set of rules as a whole. Yes, the rules say you can't have anything in your gun...in the safety area...but it doesn't state that you can't have an empty case in your gun at MR....And, by everyone quoting the safety area rules about empty cases being dummy rounds, I suggest that you also not put any empty cases in your front pocket in you are shooting SS or Production, because by your definition, that will move you to open.... Jim said it pretty well -- match DQ under 10.5.13 for failure to avail himself of the protections provided by 2.5.2...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 The above is NOT the scenario that is being addressed throughout the rest of the thread. It is a very narrow situation and it need not be an LE if you happen to be in a Carry State. What we are talking about is a person who has a chambered 'round', the definitions of what is not allowed have been reprinted in this thread several times. When a person carrying a firearm, loaded, shows up at a match he is to proceed to the unloading station first and unload. If there is no unloading station he is to find an RO who will take him to an appropriate place and unload him. the situation you are describing is this, it is not a person arriving at a stage and having a 'insert item here' pop out at MR. This person did NOT approach the RO and state I have just arrived, you do not have and unloading station and I am carrying, please unload me, as did your LE, he came up to the stage and at MR a round, empty, dummy whatever came out, sorry, he is not operating within the very narrow execption stated by you above. He is DQ'd Again, you are reading something into it that isn't there...No where in the scenario did I say he ejected anything from his weapon....All that was stated was the the first RO (or match official) he came in contact with was the one that was running the stage he was supposed to be shooting in...Who's to say what was actually said between them, and it's not important. The important fact is that he was on a range, proceded to a match official, with a hot gun...What happens next is not important (as far as the actual conversation between he and the RO). And, as far as that point goes, re-read the entire scenario...Do you unload him, then make him load again at MR? The point of the scenario as shown above, is not that it is out of line with this thread, it is the point that there are exceptions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 If anything pops out at MR, you are done. Careful here. Hypothetically speaking, the popped round could have come from an inserted magazine and not from the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 The point of the scenario as shown above, is not that it is out of line with this thread, it is the point that there are exceptions.... No, there isn't. You may have contrived one very small exception that is very weak but IMO, your LEO had better find a RO between his car and his first stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 If anything pops out at MR, you are done. Careful here. Hypothetically speaking, the popped round could have come from an inserted magazine and not from the chamber. Careful? How in the heck did a inserted mag get in the scenario? We are talking about pulling the gun out of the holster, racking the slide and something pops out. Not after a mag has been inserted and the slide racked. And, how does a round pop out of the ejection port without going in the chamber first? Does your blaster pop rounds straight from the mag out of the ejection port while you are making ready? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 The point of the scenario as shown above, is not that it is out of line with this thread, it is the point that there are exceptions.... No, there isn't. You may have contrived one very small exception that is very weak but IMO, your LEO had better find a RO between his car and his first stage. And if he doesn't? He doesn't shoot that match cause he can't find an RO cause they are all running shooters at that time instead of running the risk of DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 (edited) If anything pops out at MR, you are done. Careful here. Hypothetically speaking, the popped round could have come from an inserted magazine and not from the chamber. Careful? How in the heck did a inserted mag get in the scenario? We are talking about pulling the gun out of the holster, racking the slide and something pops out. Not after a mag has been inserted and the slide racked. And, how does a round pop out of the ejection port without going in the chamber first? Does your blaster pop rounds straight from the mag out of the ejection port while you are making ready? Many people don't rack the slide before inserting the mag, and rack after inserting the mag, I have heard of many stories of rounds even flipping around and getting loaded into the chamber backwards. If that can happen, obviously one can also fly out... Edited May 6, 2011 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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