What if this happens....

[GrumpyOne]

I'm not saying that it is ok to have a case eject out of the gun in that scenario (and in fact, I too, would be quite upset!), my point was, everyone was pointing the paragraphs in 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 and saying, well, there's your definition, when it really never defines dummy round...just what it includes...Now, the definition might even go further, if the original scenario had been put to Mr. Amidon, and it might include empty cases, but as far as a dummy round in the context of rules 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 goes, well, there's your definition...

[sperman]

I still contend that 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 define a dummy round. An e-mail from Amidon is useless.

Until there's an official ruling otherwise, IMO the ruleboook defines a dummy round.

Members of our sport send questions to John via e-mail. Sometimes they are vague, sometimes they are poorly worded. (I'm not implying either is true in this case.) John sends his reply, and then it gets posted in this forum in the middle of 7 pages of discussion. It's easy to take John's e-mail out of context, and try to apply it in ways he never intended. I personally think NROI should either make an official ruling or keep his mouth shut. With all due respect to John I just see too much confusion every time he responds to an e-mail.

[GrumpyOne]

Ok then, If mr. Amidon had included an empty case in his definition of "dummy round", how about this scenario?

Competitor is in the middle of a COF, when his weapon obviously fires (hole appears in target), but does not eject the empty case. He racks the slide, no ejection, works on it for the allotted time and can't fix the issue (broken extractor) and the case is somehow wedged in the chamber. Per the rule book, the RO terminates the course of fire. But, by the definition you post, no one can score the targets that were hit, the shooter can't leave the course, and no one can shoot, until he recitifies the problem, on the stage. Even though it states the course will be scored as shot, the stage/range is not clear until the competitor clears his weapon, and since he can't leave per 5.7.5 (if, in fact an empty case is considered a dummy round and therefore the weapon is loaded), how is anyone else after him ever going to shoot the stage?

5.7.4 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be corrected by the

competitor within 2 minutes, he must point the handgun safely downrange

and advise the Range Officer, who will terminate the course of

fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard

Exercise) in the normal manner. The course of fire (excluding any unattempted

component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as

shot including all applicable misses and penalties.

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber

or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the empty case is not considered a "dummy round", then the competitor can leave the stage and rectify the problem without being DQ'ed, and the rest of the match can continue....

Move the competitor to the safety area to clear the case/jam, and they are DQ'ed per 2.4.2 and 10.5.12.

Therefore, I submit that an empty case in a chamber or cylinder can't be considered a "Dummy round", and as such, rules 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 have no bearing in the scenario's posted in this thread. In none of the scenario's does the competitor enter the safety area, they are on the course of fire...The only place it is prohibited from having a weapon with an empty case in it or handling an empty case, is in the safety area. We cannot pick and chose which of the rules we want to follow or disregard, nor can we read more into them than what is written. It is the same as a WSB. If it is not specifically prohibited, then it must be allowed. Assumptions have no bearing when it comes to rules...They are black and white.

Edited May 4, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[Jim Norman]

While the definition occurs in reference to the safe area, I believe that it stands regardless of where in the match it occurs:

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

Until I get an OFFICIAL ruling, one that has been vetted through the BOD and released, you come tot he line and pop out an empty case, you are done, thank you for your contribution to the prize pool.

Jim

[GrumpyOne]

While the definition occurs in reference to the safe area, I believe that it stands regardless of where in the match it occurs:

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

Until I get an OFFICIAL ruling, one that has been vetted through the BOD and released, you come tot he line and pop out an empty case, you are done, thank you for your contribution to the prize pool.

Jim

And I'll see you in Arbritration..... And, I will bet that, if they read the rule book, the first person to Arb this situation will win, but the second will lose, as they will change the rule....

And again, it does not define "dummy round", only what is included in what can't be handled....

Official ruling or not, no where does it say you can't have an empty case in your weapon other than in the safety area....Dummy round, yes....Empty case, NO....

I suggest someone contact the BOD for more clarification on this matter....

Edited May 4, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[mactiger]

I still contend that 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 define a dummy round. An e-mail from Amidon is useless.

Until there's an official ruling otherwise, IMO the ruleboook defines a dummy round.

Members of our sport send questions to John via e-mail. Sometimes they are vague, sometimes they are poorly worded. (I'm not implying either is true in this case.) John sends his reply, and then it gets posted in this forum in the middle of 7 pages of discussion. It's easy to take John's e-mail out of context, and try to apply it in ways he never intended. I personally think NROI should either make an official ruling or keep his mouth shut. With all due respect to John I just see too much confusion every time he responds to an e-mail.

I agree. While the wording of the pertinent rules could be a little clearer, it's obvious that a dummy round is not just limited to a non-firing round of ammunition, but includes empty cases.

Troy

[mactiger]

Ok then, If mr. Amidon had included an empty case in his definition of "dummy round", how about this scenario?

Competitor is in the middle of a COF, when his weapon obviously fires (hole appears in target), but does not eject the empty case. He racks the slide, no ejection, works on it for the allotted time and can't fix the issue (broken extractor) and the case is somehow wedged in the chamber. Per the rule book, the RO terminates the course of fire. But, by the definition you post, no one can score the targets that were hit, the shooter can't leave the course, and no one can shoot, until he recitifies the problem, on the stage. Even though it states the course will be scored as shot, the stage/range is not clear until the competitor clears his weapon, and since he can't leave per 5.7.5 (if, in fact an empty case is considered a dummy round and therefore the weapon is loaded), how is anyone else after him ever going to shoot the stage?

5.7.4 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be corrected by the

competitor within 2 minutes, he must point the handgun safely downrange

and advise the Range Officer, who will terminate the course of

fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard

Exercise) in the normal manner. The course of fire (excluding any unattempted

component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as

shot including all applicable misses and penalties.

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of

fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber

or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

If the empty case is not considered a "dummy round", then the competitor can leave the stage and rectify the problem without being DQ'ed, and the rest of the match can continue....

Move the competitor to the safety area to clear the case/jam, and they are DQ'ed per 2.4.2 and 10.5.12.

Therefore, I submit that an empty case in a chamber or cylinder can't be considered a "Dummy round", and as such, rules 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 have no bearing in the scenario's posted in this thread. In none of the scenario's does the competitor enter the safety area, they are on the course of fire...The only place it is prohibited from having a weapon with an empty case in it or handling an empty case, is in the safety area. We cannot pick and chose which of the rules we want to follow or disregard, nor can we read more into them than what is written. It is the same as a WSB. If it is not specifically prohibited, then it must be allowed. Assumptions have no bearing when it comes to rules...They are black and white.

This is an easy problem to fix: take the slide off the gun and then it's not a "gun", it's component parts, so it can't be loaded, or fired, and the competitor can safely go to the safety area and rectify the problem.

Sometimes, it's just not as hard as it seems.....

Troy

[pvhendrix]

Why would the previous RO not have utilized a "squib rod" to knock the spent case out? As a Competitor is not allowed to leave a course of fire with a loaded gun.

[Flexmoney]

While the definition occurs in reference to the safe area, I believe that it stands regardless of where in the match it occurs:

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

Until I get an OFFICIAL ruling, one that has been vetted through the BOD and released, you come tot he line and pop out an empty case, you are done, thank you for your contribution to the prize pool.

Jim

And I'll see you in Arbritration..... And, I will bet that, if they read the rule book, the first person to Arb this situation will win, but the second will lose, as they will change the rule....

And again, it does not define "dummy round", only what is included in what can't be handled....

Official ruling or not, no where does it say you can't have an empty case in your weapon other than in the safety area....Dummy round, yes....Empty case, NO....

I suggest someone contact the BOD for more clarification on this matter....

It is your $100, and your right to arbitrate.

With the price of gas, ammo, time, etc... there are a lot of things I'd roll the dice on in an Arb. But, I just don't see it here.

It is clear to me how this call will go... especially reading the rule book.

[GrumpyOne]

I still contend that 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 define a dummy round. An e-mail from Amidon is useless.

Until there's an official ruling otherwise, IMO the ruleboook defines a dummy round.

Members of our sport send questions to John via e-mail. Sometimes they are vague, sometimes they are poorly worded. (I'm not implying either is true in this case.) John sends his reply, and then it gets posted in this forum in the middle of 7 pages of discussion. It's easy to take John's e-mail out of context, and try to apply it in ways he never intended. I personally think NROI should either make an official ruling or keep his mouth shut. With all due respect to John I just see too much confusion every time he responds to an e-mail.

I agree. While the wording of the pertinent rules could be a little clearer, it's obvious that a dummy round is not just limited to a non-firing round of ammunition, but includes empty cases.

Troy

As pertaining to the safety area, I agree....pertaining to anywhere else, I disagree.

How is it obvious? The email I sent to John is exactly how it is posted on here...He knew what I was asking, and in what context I was asking it in...There is no ambiguity in my question, nor in his answer...

There have been many postings on this forum, of people sending emails to John for clarification, and once that clarification was received from John, it was posted here on the forums, and it was taken as gospel from that day on...Yet this one doesn't suit many of you....so you will ignore the rule book in favor of your own judgement versus the word as spoken by John (albeit one in email, and not an official ruling). I agree wholeheartedly that there should be an official ruling, and that someone should bring this up to the BOD, but until that ruling, the rule book is clear. ONLY IN THE SAFE AREA IS IT PROHIBITED FROM HANDLING OR HAVING AN EMPTY CASE IN YOUR GUN. Even 10.5.13 applies only to loaded weapons (live or dummy), whereas the safety area rules apply to dummy rounds (including.....).

[GrumpyOne]

Alright, I sent an email to John Amidon, DNROI...This is the reply I got:

Hi Andy,

A dummy round is a snap cap, a case with a spent primmer no powder and a bullet head, basically any bullet that will not fire but used to feed and eject by racking the slide or dumping the cylinder on a revolver.

John

From:

Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:03 PM

To: dnroi@uspsa.org

Subject: I need a defintion...

Looking through the rule book, there are definitions for almost everything in the glossary, but there is no complete definiton for "Dummy Round". What is considered a "Dummy round"? I know rules 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 talk about handling ammo, dummy rounds, empty cases, etc. in a safe area, but it "includes" empty cases...Are empty cases to be defined as dummy rounds? The rule book defines cartridge case only.....

Thanks!

Andy Glattli

Notice is states that a dummy round is "a case with a spent primmer no powder and a bullet head". If there is no bullet "head", it is not a dummy round, therefore the shooter cannot be DQ'ed. He also goes on to state that a dummy round is "any bullet that will not fire but used to feed and eject by racking the slide or dumping the cylinder".

A case without a bullet is not a dummy round...It is simply a case with no bullet...By John's definition, it takes all three of those things to make a dummy round, without the bullet head, no dummy round....

I just went back and re-read this again. I specifically asked if an empty case was to be defined as a "dummy round". He essentially replied that, No, it was not, by his definition of "Dummy round".

[mactiger]

Alright, I sent an email to John Amidon, DNROI...This is the reply I got:

Hi Andy,

A dummy round is a snap cap, a case with a spent primmer no powder and a bullet head, basically any bullet that will not fire but used to feed and eject by racking the slide or dumping the cylinder on a revolver.

John

From:

Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 8:03 PM

To: dnroi@uspsa.org

Subject: I need a defintion...

Looking through the rule book, there are definitions for almost everything in the glossary, but there is no complete definiton for "Dummy Round". What is considered a "Dummy round"? I know rules 2.4.2 and 10.5.12 talk about handling ammo, dummy rounds, empty cases, etc. in a safe area, but it "includes" empty cases...Are empty cases to be defined as dummy rounds? The rule book defines cartridge case only.....

Thanks!

Andy Glattli

Notice is states that a dummy round is "a case with a spent primmer no powder and a bullet head". If there is no bullet "head", it is not a dummy round, therefore the shooter cannot be DQ'ed. He also goes on to state that a dummy round is "any bullet that will not fire but used to feed and eject by racking the slide or dumping the cylinder".

A case without a bullet is not a dummy round...It is simply a case with no bullet...By John's definition, it takes all three of those things to make a dummy round, without the bullet head, no dummy round....

I just went back and re-read this again. I specifically asked if an empty case was to be defined as a "dummy round". He essentially replied that, No, it was not, by his definition of "Dummy round".

I note a couple of things: John only gave you a definition of what a dummy round is, and you didn't ask him specifically what would happen if you ejected an empty case at MR.

Also, if you can't handle an empty case in a Safety Area, what makes you think you can walk around with one in your gun?

Troy

[Ray_Z]

Some years back one of the commands was changed to "If clear, hammer down and holster". That change reinforced the responsibility was the shooter's. The gun is the responsibility of the shooter, not the RO. Why did I say this? I'd like to know how that empty case got into the gun. It was stated that this was not the first stage this shooter shot that day. If an RO did not check the chamber on the preceding stage, he needs to know about it, and what the outcome was. If the shooter stopped at a safety area and was dry firing with a empty case in the gun as a snap cap, well,,,,.

[sfinney]

people sending emails to John for clarification, and once that clarification was received from John, it was posted here on the forums, and it was taken as gospel from that day on...Yet this one doesn't suit many of you....so you will ignore the rule book in favor of your own judgement versus the word as spoken by John

"word as spoke by John" - what is he a prophet, now?

I rarely agree with his email responses or clarifications, for what its worth. I cringe every time says "ask John" in these forums, because someone will, and now we will have a new rule that screws up how the masses have been interpreting the rulebook with logic and common sense up that point.

I understand that you are saying the book is poorly worded - but are you saying it needs to be changed to specifically name empty cases as dummy rounds, or that you think we should all be able to run around with empty cases in pur pistols if we feel like it? Not sure of your intent here.....

[sperman]

...so you will ignore the rule book in favor of your own judgement versus the word as spoken by John ...

No. I will ignore an e-mail from John in favor of what's written int he rulebook.

[bluenite]

I hope I never attend a match where a RO allows a loaded firearm to leave the range, because they believe the round has been spent.

The round can only be confirmed as spent once it is outside of the firearm.

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

I think walking around with a loaded gun falls under this even if after the fact the round is found to be spent.

I think it is also covered by:

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity.

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

If none of those make you happy, Fall back on this

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

And let me repeat.

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

[GrumpyOne]

I'm not saying that it is safe, far from it...What I'm saying is that per the rule book, it is not a DQ'able offense....If the rule book is taken word for word, literally, and nothing is implied or assumed.

[Singlestack]

I'm not saying that it is safe, far from it...What I'm saying is that per the rule book, it is not a DQ'able offense....If the rule book is taken word for word, literally, and nothing is implied or assumed.

Ya think?

Rephrase your question to DRNOI then. Ask him what happens if you were to eject a piece of brass at MR.

[GrumpyOne]

I just received an update from Amidon concerning this:

The dummy round does not need all three components, dummy is referred to as an imitation of a real object used as a substitute.

While 10.5.13 would not come into play at the line as it does not meet the criteria of a loaded gun, it would be an issue that would cause the RO to have a heart to heart talk to the competitor, as the dummy ammunition had to be put into the handgun someplace and possible 10.5.12 would be invoked.

See 2.4.2

John

From: Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 1:06 PM

To: DNROI

Subject: Re: I need a defintion...

John, I'm sorry to have to bother you again with this, but your definition raised some hackles....If a "dummy round" consist of your definition (A dummy round is a snap cap, a case with a spent primmer no powder and a bullet head, basically any bullet that will not fire but used to feed and eject by racking the slide or dumping the cylinder on a revolver), then rule 10.5.13, Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer, would not apply to someone who, at make ready, ejects an empty case, from the chamber of their gun, and as such would not be subject to a DQ. If the so called "dummy round" needs all three of the components you define, then an empty case does not meet the criteria, and is not a dummy round....Am I correct in this? I mean, by the letter of the rule.....10.5.13 does not say live round, dummy round, or empty case....simply live round or dummy round...

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber

or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

[GrumpyOne]

I'm not saying that it is safe, far from it...What I'm saying is that per the rule book, it is not a DQ'able offense....If the rule book is taken word for word, literally, and nothing is implied or assumed.

Ya think?

Rephrase your question to DRNOI then. Ask him what happens if you were to eject a piece of brass at MR.

See the previous post...

Edited May 4, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[Singlestack]

I'm not saying that it is safe, far from it...What I'm saying is that per the rule book, it is not a DQ'able offense....If the rule book is taken word for word, literally, and nothing is implied or assumed.

Ya think?

Rephrase your question to DRNOI then. Ask him what happens if you were to eject a piece of brass at MR.

See the previous post...

I... am... lets say... supprised.

I also say, DNROI is wrong.

[GrumpyOne]

I'm not saying that it is safe, far from it...What I'm saying is that per the rule book, it is not a DQ'able offense....If the rule book is taken word for word, literally, and nothing is implied or assumed.

Ya think?

Rephrase your question to DRNOI then. Ask him what happens if you were to eject a piece of brass at MR.

See the previous post...

I... am... lets say... supprised.

I also say, DNROI is wrong.

Ah, the proverbial student, telling the teacher they are wrong....

My point, through this entire thread, whether you believe it to be right, or believe it to be wrong, there is no evidence to prove that it is wrong...It's based on assumptions and implications....

[Singlestack]

While 10.5.13 would not come into play at the line as it does not meet the criteria of a loaded gun, it would be an issue that would cause the RO to have a heart to heart talk to the competitor, as the dummy ammunition had to be put into the handgun someplace and possible 10.5.12 would be invoked.

See 2.4.2

John

He just stepped on his d**k.

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber

or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

[mhs]

I... am... lets say... supprised.

I also say, DNROI is wrong.

Yup.

[GrumpyOne]

While 10.5.13 would not come into play at the line as it does not meet the criteria of a loaded gun, it would be an issue that would cause the RO to have a heart to heart talk to the competitor, as the dummy ammunition had to be put into the handgun someplace and possible 10.5.12 would be invoked.

See 2.4.2

John

He just stepped on his d**k.

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber

or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a

magazine inserted in the firearm.

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Yes, and that is taken out of context of what he said...Quote the entire paragraph...

While 10.5.13 would not come into play at the line as it does not meet the criteria of a loaded gun