commands between strings

[ErikW]

We've all complained about non-standard range commands but I realized there is a time when you need to deviate and make something up: between strings.

If You Are Finished, Load for the Next String

Move to the Next Position

(LAMR repeated for the subsequent strings)

If we went by the book we would just be silent between strings? Or are we supposed to give IYAFUASC & GC-HD-H commands between strings? That's horribly inefficient.

[Neil Beverley]

Erik

You make a very good point and it should be covered.

I'm sure it will be added to the list of things to discuss/sort.

[mactiger]

This is an excellent point, and while I think it should be addressed, I think it should be addressed in general, rather than specific, terms. Since the competitor is already loaded, and under the RO's "control", I'm not sure that we need specific commands to cover the situation, since the situation could be different each time, depending on the course of fire. I've heard (and used), "reload and holster", "reload for the next string", or just LAMR again, between strings. I agree with Erik--going through the whole series of commands for clearing and reloading the gun is hugely inefficient, plus I think it breaks the competitor's concentration. Just my 2 cents.

Troy

[Nik Habicht]

With experienced shooters the most I've had to say has been "reload if necessary." With newbies, I've sometimes had to explain that we don't unload and show clear between strings, and then had to walk them through the whole reloading and holstering and assuming the next start position procedure step by step....

I guess I'm in favor of general guidelines --- I don't see this as a huge issue.

Erik --- I'd probably be silent if I was r.o. ing you, knowing of your concentration proclivities....

[Yoda]

With newbies, I've sometimes had to explain that we don't unload and show clear between strings, and then had to walk them through the whole reloading and holstering and assuming the next start position procedure step by step....

Nik,

that's why it would be a good idea to add the sequence "Reload if necessary" and "Make Ready" (or similar wording) to the rulebook with a short description that this is the way to go through a stage with multiple strings. Will be added to the TO DO list for future revisions.

[Flexmoney]

If the trianed RO's have questions on this...then the shooters will be even more confused. (and end up with empty guns and locked holsters on the next string).

[Jim Norman]

I have to agree with Nik. K.I.S.S.

My general method is to say" If you are finished, reload if necessary for the next string". If the stage is more than two starts and/or if it is a newbie, I will ask if the shooter understands the instructions for the string. If it is a four string COF, I will generally give the string instructions unless the shooter asks me not too. Then it's Shooter Ready?, Stand-by, Beep.

I can't think of a time when this failed to satisfy all concerned.

I don't think we need a rule to require it and I also don't think we should forbid it. With all rules there are "Unintended Consequences" no matter how well thought out they may be. If we forbid any commands between strings, that leaves the shooter without direction as when to load, position to assume etc. Can the shooter then ask? Or would an answer then be considered coaching? If we require a litany of commands, then we need to codify them and we can be sure there is a situation out there that will not quite fit in, but since there would be a rule, we would not be able to break it.

The most I would do is put in a caveat that on multi-start stages the RO may issue commands and re-read the instructions for subsequent strings as he and/or the shooter deem necessary.

Jim Norman

[Neil Beverley]

Guys

Please note that I've now formally posted this as something for the Rules Committee to look at in due course.

I think I'm in favour of issuing a "guideline" command and there are other instances in the rule book where we issue "good practice" "rules" so we can tackle this on the same basis.

There are some of us who are already adopting a common phrasiology being either "Reload if necessary" or "If you are finished, reload if necessary".

This seems clean enough and could form the basis for the recommended range command.

Yoda

that's why it would be a good idea to add the sequence "Reload if necessary" and "Make Ready" (or similar wording)

Please note that the SG rule book already, but uniquely for IPSC, has:

8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready” or “Make Ready”

[Neil Beverley]

I would just add that it reminds me (from long ago) of a very long established top UK shooter who also worked as an RO from time to time.

His somewhat unorthadox command (but in good humour) was:

Fill it up!

[AikiDale]

The phrase I have been using at the end of a string: " If you are finished, prepare your weapon for the next string and holster."

[TheOtherErik]

I use: " If you are finished, prepare for the next string." plain and simple

[Jim Norman]

Risking the Wrath of the Moderators.

Quoting Neil Beverly:

I would just add that it reminds me (from long ago) of a very long established top UK shooter who also worked as an RO from time to time.

His somewhat unorthadox command (but in good humour) was:

QUOTE

Fill it up!

The following is our method.

When our esteemed AD is present, we will tend (Only with one of our seasoned shooters) to use the following commands:

Do you have any idea of what you are doing here?

Stoke 'em up Cowboy.

After which we revert to the correct command structure until the very end.

If you are finished Unload And Show Clear, Gun Clear, >Insert "Slide Forward"< Hammer Down, Holster.

Fun to watch George shuffle his feet forward after the slide forward command.

Understand we'd NEVER do this with a new shooter, at a large match or with anyone that would not "Get it"

Humor mode off

Jim Norman

[ivanhu]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

please let me remind you all what the 6.1.1 paragraph says:

6.1.1 String – A separately timed and scored component of a Standard Exercise. Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of each string, and results achieved in each string are then tallied to produce a final stage result (also see Rule 9.5.5).

Therefore, unless you're going to score the string so that the shooter is still loaded (which is not absolutely impossible, just creates a lot of other headaches), the regular command order will do: IYAF,UASC - IC,HD,H - RC; then score the string; then go to the next string and issue the command LAMR - and all the rest.

Also, some quoted the obsolete version of the IC,HD,H command. Now we should say "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster", and not to declare "Gun Clear". However, since AFAIK, USPSA wants to overrule the 6.1.1, therefore USPSA also might consider to define the necessary additional commands, too.

[ivanhu]

Oops, I've pressed that button a bit early.

I also was going to add:

However, the Rules Committee indeed may consider to define the proper commands in case of "hot range stages", when the shooter shoots more than one stage, but scoring takes place only when all of the corresponding stages have been shot.

However, I guess the only necessary commands would be:

"If you are finished, apply safety and holster". This command instructs the competitor to holster his gun as specified in 8.1, and after securing the gun in the holster, the shooter must cross his arms above his chest.

This command is then should be followed by the "Move to the next position". This command instructs the competitor to go to the starting position of the next specified stage. Upon arriving, he still remains with arms crossed above his chest.

From now on, the RO might start as usual: "Load and make ready" - and then the shooter may do as he wishes...

[Neil Beverley]

Ivan

It makes sense to formally consider this entire subject for IPSC and indeed as stated above Ive added it on the to do list.

From time to time I certainly see secondary sets of targets being employed for different strings or stages. Therefore different range commands will be of benefit on these occasions. I don't see it as being exclusively a US issue.

Also as you point out we need to consider "hot ranges". I'm sure we can resolve this fairly simply.

[ivanhu]

From time to time I certainly see secondary sets of targets being employed for different strings or stages.  Therefore different range commands will be of benefit on these occasions.  I don't see it as being exclusively a US issue.

Well, strictly speaking, it is mandatory to score between the strings, regardless whether the involved targets are the same or different. Apparently, recording the time and leaving the targets unchanged until scoring at the end is indeed considered to be "scored separately", which IMHO is the intent of the rule, but it actually says "scores and penalties are recorded following completion of each string". But of course, were the strings use different targets, noone would protest ever, even if the match wouldn't follow strictly the 6.1.1 rule. I therefore think that the Rules Committee should investigate this rule, too. (An added sentence would perhaps do: scoring more strings only at the completion of the last of that session on the multi-string stage is allowed as long as the results of the separate strings could be preserved up to and identified during the scoring phase. - This wording is perhaps the most flexible one, it allows me to score e.g. two strings, reload the competitor, and shoot and score two more strings on a four-string stage).

What you describe is basically the "hot range" issue, but that's not the "hot range stages", rather "hot range strings". The same two commands I've suggested above could also work for these cases, too.

The Rules Committee also must make a decision: when the reloading part should take place? Right after finishing the previous string, of right before starting the next one? (The third option might also be the any of the two, as the briefing specifies, if the new range commands will be added accordingly.)

I agree, it's not just a USPSA issue, IPSC also should address it - first by modifying the involved 6.1.1 rule, and second by adding the new commands that serves well both the separated strings and the separated hot range stages.

[Flexmoney]

"If you are finished, apply safety and holster".

"Move to the next position".

"Load and make ready" - and then the shooter may do as he wishes...

Those seem like the most logical range commands to me.

[BDH]

FWIW, I use....

'Reload if necessary. Holster'

With new shooters, I'm a little more verbal....

'Reload if necessary. Safety on. Holster. Step forward to the next box'

The clarification with my new shooter commands helps avoid the potential DQ under 10.3.13.

[ivanhu]

'Reload if necessary. Holster'

With new shooters, I'm a little more verbal....

'Reload if necessary. Safety on. Holster. Step forward to the next box'

Yup, I've heard the same command chain several times. I could be argued when the reloading should take place - after the previous run, or before the next one.

I prefer my method - reloading takes place before the next run. I must provide preparation time to the shooter anyhow - so why take extra measures at the end of the previous run, when the shooter will have ample time to do the same before the next? Besides, IMHO it is more in favour of the shooter - even the unexperienced one will be able to stick to his rituale better, as he'll hear the same command, and he'll do almost the same - (re)load his gun, and prepare.

It doesn't mean that the other method is bad, I just prefer my way better.

[BDH]

I must provide preparation time to the shooter anyhow - so why take extra measures at the end of the previous run, when the shooter will have ample time to do the same before the next?

Ivan,

I follow your logic and my first thought was 'now why didn't I think of that?' However, after thinking about it a couple of minutes, I'll stick with reloading after the string for the following reason.

The firearm is out of the holster at the end of the completed string. The shooter reloads it, and safely holsters it. Then they walk forward and get their 'mind right' to shoot the next string. Using your method, I assume you have them holster at the end of the string, then move forward, then pull the firearm to reload if necessary. I prefer to minimize the gun handling, and will just give them the time they need in the next box to prep themselves (although, I do agree that your method allows you to stick with standard range commands).

I fully agree that some of this is personal preference, and will remain that way unless the rules committee makes a change in this area.

[Shooter Grrl]

Well, when the shooter arrives to the next position, the RO must provide him the time to prepare. That is, issue the "make ready" command before asking the "are you ready".

Ivan - you're a tad confused. This entire discussion is about the fact that YOU DO NOT issue the range commands between each string!

And honestly, I don't give the shooter time to prepare in between - they got that at the start - just because they holster doesn't mean they get to "start over". I also do not let them take sight pics after the first string either.

[BDH]

Well, when the shooter arrives to the next position, the RO must provide him the time to prepare. That is, issue the "make ready" command before asking the "are you ready".

Ivan - you're a tad confused. This entire discussion is about the fact that YOU DO NOT issue the range commands between each string!

And honestly, I don't give the shooter time to prepare in between - they got that at the start - just because they holster doesn't mean they get to "start over". I also do not let them take sight pics after the first string either.

Kath, something really weird is going on here. First, I was reading Ivans reply to my post, and now it doesn't show on the board. Second, I clicked on YOUR 'Holy Crap' message to quote it, and instead the quoted message (show above) was your other message to Ivan.......

I just posted this, and now your Holy Crap message is gone along with Ivans....

Edited April 9, 2004 by BDH

[Shooter Grrl]

Yeah something REALLY screwy going on here - I didn't realize you were trying to quote these as I was trying to FIX them!

Ivan's response to your post was corrupted with my post. Twas cool to see, exact words, but with his name on it - but twas really confusing, so I ko'ed it!

[ivanhu]

Ivan - you're a tad confused. This entire discussion is about the fact that YOU DO NOT issue the range commands between each string!

Which of course is illegal by the new IPSC rules, see 6.1.1... Besides, we actually DO issue range commands between the strings (the absolute theoretical minimum is the start signal). The only that these commands are not "official" in the sense that the rule book doesn't cover the issue otherwise than that the competitors must follow the reasonable directions of the range official (see 10.6.1).

However, as I see, the discussion was shifted towards the hot range issue, be it more strings with separate targets or more stages in the same bay.

And honestly, I don't give the shooter time to prepare in between - they got that at the start - just because they holster doesn't mean they get to "start over".  I also do not let them take sight pics after the first string either.

Well, as long as I have to change position between strings, or have to reholster the gun between strings, how do you want to restart me on the second string? You just give me the signal? Were you try to issue any command (including the signal), I'd keep refusing to react until I'd have time to check my gun and be mentally prepared...

As for the sight picture - the loaded sight picture is now illegal, but what if the shooter HAS unloaded the gun before taking the sight picture, and then reloads it again? What your call would be, and what rule supports it?

[BDH]

Okay, weird or not, I am going to try to respond to Ivans lost post from memory......

Ivan, when I take someone to the next box, they will not be pulling their firearm until they hear the start signal, nor will they get a 'make ready' command from me. They reloaded and checked their firearm, when they finished the last string, so it is ready to go. I just stand next to them until they get their mind right, and I generally know when they are ready to go, because they assume the start position. After they assume the start position, they hear 'are you ready' and away we go. I don't rush them, and I can't remember anyone ever responding 'not ready'.

As for minimizing the gun handling.... well, let's just say that especially with the minimalist race holsters, I have seen more than one person mis-holster their firearm, and either drop it, or almost drop it. I just figure that cutting down the number of times they holster or un-holster helps to minimize the chances of a DQ from a dropped firearm.

I know this personal preference, and not trying to convince you my way is better. However, it does work for me and I probably won't change a thing unless the Rules get re-defined.