Single Stack + table starts

[Gary Stevens]

I have a DNROI answer and am waiting on permission to post it.

[sperman]

Hopefully with all of the discussion over 5.2.4 John will write about it in the next issue of Front Sight.

[Gary Stevens]

Hopefully with all of the discussion over 5.2.4 John will write about it in the next issue of Front Sight.

I believe it would be wise to do so.

[Gary Stevens]

OK permission has been given.

To begin with, JA said his original response was to a general question about shooting while holding a magazine in the other hand. His response was a general one to that question.

My question delt with the specific issue of SS and Production and table starts. Here is the relevant part of my question and his response.

What I understood before the match was this:

Table start, all mags on table, loaded gun. You could shoot and reload to

your hearts content from the start position as the mags on the table are

legal at that point. However, as I understood it, once they left the start

position the mags had to be stored in some manner behind the hipbone to be

division compliant.

The confusion seems to be that folks are reading your correspondence with

the individual to say that you could also just carry the mags in your hand,

and one might also say mouth, arm pit, etc., and not store them behind the

hipbone as required by the division.

We know it has been ruled that a mag in the front pocket is not division

compliant, but it would be OK to carry it in your hand if you wished?

As to the WSB are you saying that you can violate the division equipment

placement of behind the hip bone in a stage with mags on the table start

unless it isn't specified in the WSB?

Sorry to be so dense on this but I am thoroughly confused.

Gary

John's response:

Gary,

No, the WSB does not override the rule, 5.2.4 states in it unless otherwise

prohibited in the WSB a person could carry a mag in their pocket or apparel

and retrieve them as long as the pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D item 12 (subject to the provisions of rule 6.2.5.1).

You are correct in the statement below that as long as they were at the

table or barrel, reload to heart's content, but once you leave, the mag for

Production/Singe Stack divisions must be behind the hip bone. The question

asked did not stipulate division, so the answer was a general answer with

the comment that common sense had to be used, thus, if the division

restricts it, it cannot be done. Of course, if you wanted to carry the mag

in your hand and shoot strong hand, you could have the hand behind the hip

bone. :-)

John

So on with the game.

[mhs]

OK permission has been given.

To begin with, JA said his original response was to a general question about shooting while holding a magazine in the other hand. His response was a general one to that question.

My question delt with the specific issue of SS and Production and table starts. Here is the relevant part of my question and his response.

What I understood before the match was this:

Table start, all mags on table, loaded gun. You could shoot and reload to

your hearts content from the start position as the mags on the table are

legal at that point. However, as I understood it, once they left the start

position the mags had to be stored in some manner behind the hipbone to be

division compliant.

The confusion seems to be that folks are reading your correspondence with

the individual to say that you could also just carry the mags in your hand,

and one might also say mouth, arm pit, etc., and not store them behind the

hipbone as required by the division.

We know it has been ruled that a mag in the front pocket is not division

compliant, but it would be OK to carry it in your hand if you wished?

As to the WSB are you saying that you can violate the division equipment

placement of behind the hip bone in a stage with mags on the table start

unless it isn't specified in the WSB?

Sorry to be so dense on this but I am thoroughly confused.

Gary

John's response:

Gary,

No, the WSB does not override the rule, 5.2.4 states in it unless otherwise

prohibited in the WSB a person could carry a mag in their pocket or apparel

and retrieve them as long as the pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D item 12 (subject to the provisions of rule 6.2.5.1).

You are correct in the statement below that as long as they were at the

table or barrel, reload to heart's content, but once you leave, the mag for

Production/Singe Stack divisions must be behind the hip bone. The question

asked did not stipulate division, so the answer was a general answer with

the comment that common sense had to be used, thus, if the division

restricts it, it cannot be done. Of course, if you wanted to carry the mag

in your hand and shoot strong hand, you could have the hand behind the hip

bone. :-)

John

So on with the game.

Wow. I was expecting him to say that you could carry a mag in your hand however you liked. This opens a massive can of worms, in that a production shooter can carry a mag in his hand behind his hipbone, but can only (I now think) move it in front if he is loading. I can just see the arb: I moved it in front because I intended to load, and then realized that I should wait until after the next array. I moved it back as soon as I figured it out." This could really benefit from an official NROI ruling.

[Thomas H]

[snipped original part]

John's response:

Gary,

You are correct in the statement below that as long as they were at the

table or barrel, reload to heart's content, but once you leave, the mag for

Production/Singe Stack divisions must be behind the hip bone. The question

asked did not stipulate division, so the answer was a general answer with

the comment that common sense had to be used, thus, if the division

restricts it, it cannot be done. Of course, if you wanted to carry the mag

in your hand and shoot strong hand, you could have the hand behind the hip

bone. :-)

John

This could really benefit from an official NROI ruling.

No kidding. The part I have bolded above REALLY seems to contradict what he said earlier...which was:

If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all".

That was in direct response to my question about having a magazine in your hand as you move and shoot through a course of fire.

In addition, his later comment seemed to directly say that in a course of fire, you can take the magazine out of your pouch at any time and hold it in your hand as you move and shoot:

Some common sense is needed occasionally, the purpose of the rule in question is under a normal start, yes all ammo should be in retaining pouches, but there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF.

This new response seems to directly contradict that.

Now I really hope NROI makes an official response to this, because at the moment I see full and complete arguments in both directions---and arb results being---arbitrary. [sigh] And I was feeling so good about understanding before.

So where are we going to draw the line about how much movement you can make while reloading? If my reload takes five steps (and if I fumble it, it sometimes does) does that mean I'm now acting against the rules? How about six steps?

Am I going to have to stop and be behind cover to reload? (Okay, that was a cheap shot.)

I really don't understand this response compared to his original one---nor do I understand why division would make any difference. His response implies that for hand carry, Production/SS is different from the others---so does this mean that Limited/Open/L10 guys can carry the mag in a hand and shoot to their heart's content, but Prod/SS guys can't unless they have one hand behind their back?

I realize we've handicapped Prod/SS shooters in the past, but this seems more blatant than normal.

(edited because I hit "submit" accidentally and early)

Edited April 30, 2011 by Thomas H

[sperman]

[MoNsTeR]

The only rule that makes sense to me is this:

1. division requirements, possibly superseded by the WSB, specify where your mags must be at the buzzer

2. after the buzzer you can do literally whatever you want with your mags, again within the limits of the WSB

Simple. Enforceable.

The rules as they stand viewed through the above interpretation from JA, by comparison, are [CENSORED].

[Thomas H]

Even better, it just occurred to me that it the gun starts on a table a distance away, unloaded start, a Production/SS guy can't pull a mag on the way to their firearm. After all, that is movement without the mag being behind the hip, and if you don't have a gun, you can't be reloading, now can you?

This is ridiculous.

[Gary Stevens]

[snipped original part]

John's response:

Gary,

You are correct in the statement below that as long as they were at the

table or barrel, reload to heart's content, but once you leave, the mag for

Production/Singe Stack divisions must be behind the hip bone. The question

asked did not stipulate division, so the answer was a general answer with

the comment that common sense had to be used, thus, if the division

restricts it, it cannot be done. Of course, if you wanted to carry the mag

in your hand and shoot strong hand, you could have the hand behind the hip

bone. :-)

John

This could really benefit from an official NROI ruling.

No kidding. The part I have bolded above REALLY seems to contradict what he said earlier...which was:

If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all".

That was in direct response to my question about having a magazine in your hand as you move and shoot through a course of fire.

In addition, his later comment seemed to directly say that in a course of fire, you can take the magazine out of your pouch at any time and hold it in your hand as you move and shoot:

Some common sense is needed occasionally, the purpose of the rule in question is under a normal start, yes all ammo should be in retaining pouches, but there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF.

This new response seems to directly contradict that.

Now I really hope NROI makes an official response to this, because at the moment I see full and complete arguments in both directions---and arb results being---arbitrary. [sigh] And I was feeling so good about understanding before.

So where are we going to draw the line about how much movement you can make while reloading? If my reload takes five steps (and if I fumble it, it sometimes does) does that mean I'm now acting against the rules? How about six steps?

Am I going to have to stop and be behind cover to reload? (Okay, that was a cheap shot.)

I really don't understand this response compared to his original one---nor do I understand why division would make any difference. His response implies that for hand carry, Production/SS is different from the others---so does this mean that Limited/Open/L10 guys can carry the mag in a hand and shoot to their heart's content, but Prod/SS guys can't unless they have one hand behind their back?

I realize we've handicapped Prod/SS shooters in the past, but this seems more blatant than normal.

(edited because I hit "submit" accidentally and early)

Perhaps it is because the rules for SS and Production require the holster and other equipment (magazines/speedloaders) to be behind the forward point of the hip bone.

All of this is pretty easy to understand if you understand the rules of SS and Production equipment placement.

[kevin c]

Hmmm...

And if, shooting Production, I draw a mag to reload, but then engage a target before or after dropping the original mag but before inserting the new one, am I legal?

And if, shooting Production, am I legal if I draw a mag and place it next to me as I go prone?

[Thomas H]

All of this is pretty easy to understand if you understand the rules of SS and Production equipment placement.

Thank you, I'm quite conversant with the rules of SS and Production equipment placement. I'm going to act as if you weren't really meaning to be quite as snarky as that sounded.

The problem here is that makes no difference to carrying magazines in the hand. After all, 5.2.4 is clear:

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

You'll note that there is NO provision for carrying in the hand---every division has a device or pocket requirement. If there IS somewhere a rule regarding hand carry, I'd like to see it.

So---either we follow 5.2.4, and everyone must use retention devices or apparel pockets, regardless of division, or there is something about hand carry that makes it different. If it IS different, then stipulating hand carry positions based on a requirement for something already defined as different is ridiculous.

If it ISN'T different---then it doesn't matter what division you are shooting. Sorry, but L/L10/O divisions don't get a free pass on 5.2.4 by adding a oh, we mean hand carry also when we say "retention device attached to the competitor's belt" or "apparel pocket" so they can carry however they'd like, but the Prod/SS shooters have to have one hand behind their hip.

Either hand carry is a different situation, or it isn't. DNROI's original response:

If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all".

{snip WSB comment}

Some common sense is needed occasionally, the purpose of the rule in question is under a normal start, yes all ammo should be in retaining pouches, but there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF.

...seemed clear---hand carry was something different from belt carry. The followup makes it seem not---and yet, you don't get to have it halfway.

Either hand carry is a different case, whereupon division-specific belt-equipment placement rules don't apply (because we aren't talking about equipment on a belt), or it IS the same case, whereupon 5.2.4 applies, and no one gets to do it.

[badchad]

Perhaps it is because the rules for SS and Production require the holster and other equipment (magazines/speedloaders) to be behind the forward point of the hip bone.

All of this is pretty easy to understand if you understand the rules of SS and Production equipment placement.

I don't know. If it were so easy then I don't think Amidon would have given me the exact opposite answer regarding holding Production and SS mags in the mouth or hand in 2009, with a slew of CROs standing around him in agreement. Here was my post of the subject when it was fresh in my mind:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86671&view=findpost&p=1063120

At that time you thought it ok to put mags in the mouth too:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86671&view=findpost&p=998999

[Thomas H]

And, because I have some free time, here's some examples:

In Production/SS division:

• I pick up a mag, and move to a new spot before putting it in a mag pouch. That legal?
  
• As someone else has said---I start to reload, have the new mag in my hand, take one last close-up shot SHO, then perform my reload---that legal?
  
• I grab two mags from a table start, stuff them in my mag pouches, grab my gun, load it, and grab one last mag as I start running. When I get to my first shooting position, I finally get the mag into the pouch. Is that legal?
  
• I drop the mag from the gun, grab a new mag, run to a new position, put the new mag in the gun as I reach the new position. That legal?
  
• How about one from the DoubleTap last year? Empty gun is in one place. Mags are in another. I go grab some mags, place one into a pouch as I run, then load the other into the firearm once I get there. Is that legal?
  
• Or do I need to put them both into pouches, THEN pull one back out to load?
  
• Do I have to make sure they are both fully in pouches before I actually start moving?
  
• Or perhaps put one into a pouch, and then run with one hand behind my back carrying the magazine. How's that? That legal?
  

I note that up until the last two sentences, the newest opinion makes all those situations against the rules.

DNROI's previous email had clear obvious rules to follow. The newest one---doesn't. As an RO, do I start penalizing people on the third step? Or the second? Start timing how early they pull a mag to reload? When do we go from "pulling a mag to reload" to "pulling a mag to carry it ready"?

Don't tell me "use common sense" --- because you can only use common sense in situations where the rule itself makes sense.

[Gary Stevens]

I'm finished.

[Thomas H]

I'm finished.

I'm actually serious about that last set of questions--for Production/SS shooters, if you have a magazine in your hand and the only way to do that legally is to either 1) be directly in the process of reloading or 2) have the hand behind your hip---again, how are we going to start calling this as ROs?

My above list:

• I pick up a mag, and move to a new spot before putting it in a mag pouch. That legal?
  
• As someone else has said---I start to reload, have the new mag in my hand, take one last close-up shot SHO, then perform my reload---that legal?
  
• I grab two mags from a table start, stuff them in my mag pouches, grab my gun, load it, and grab one last mag as I start running. When I get to my first shooting position, I finally get the mag into the pouch. Is that legal? (How is this different from the first item on this list?)
  
• I drop the mag from the gun, grab a new mag, run to a new position, put the new mag in the gun as I reach the new position. That legal?
  
• How about one from the DoubleTap last year? Empty gun is in one place. Mags are in another. I go grab some mags, place one into a pouch as I run, then load the other into the firearm once I get there. Is that legal?
  
• Or do I need to put them both into pouches, THEN pull one back out to load?
  
• Do I have to make sure they are both fully in pouches before I actually start moving?
  

...is actually serious. How many of those are not legal with this new understanding of what is allowed for hand carry? Seems to me that all are against the rules except for the last one!

And that doesn't even count having a mag in the hand clasped to the gun while shooting two-handed. I've seen Production GMs do that a number of times. Is that now against the rules?

Is this how it is going to be?

For Production/SS shooters, if you have a magazine in your hand, the only way to do that legally is to either 1) be directly in the process of reloading or 2) have the hand behind your hip.

[Sarge]

Thank you, I'm quite conversant with the rules of SS and Production equipment placement. I'm going to act as if you weren't really meaning to be quite as snarky as that sounded.

Gary Stevens Snarky?

Not in this lifetime.

[badchad]

I am having trouble with picking up a bunch of mags from a table and running with them being OK in SS and Production, but placing an empty stripper mag in a front pocket moves you to open. Somewhere along the line that doesn't seem to make sense to me, and then I revert back to what I was personally told.

I think the part about the "empty stripper mag in the front pocket moves you to open" is where all the trouble started.

[Nik Habicht]

Perhaps it is because the rules for SS and Production require the holster and other equipment (magazines/speedloaders) to be behind the forward point of the hip bone.

All of this is pretty easy to understand if you understand the rules of SS and Production equipment placement.

I'm as on board with the intent of those rules as anyone, and considering that I've primarily played in Production for the last ~ 9 years, I thought I had a handle on the rules.

This suggestion -- that a Production shooter may not move from the start position with a mag in his/her hand opens a huge can of worms. Does this mean that all reloads in Production and SS divisions should only be accomplished while the shooter is static? If not, how is a shooter carrying a mag in their hand at that point different? What about the shooter who drops a mag on the ground, as he is assuming the prone position -- for a moment the mag is in front of the hipbone. Should the competitor be moved to Open?

I'm on board with pouches and holsters being division compliant. I'm on board with magazines or speed loaders being placed in division compliant holders or pockets, if the shooter elects to store them. I'm not on board with moving a competitor to Open, for carrying a magazines or magazines in his hands while moving through the course of fire.....

Time to call my AD.....

[Singlestack]

Thank you, I'm quite conversant with the rules of SS and Production equipment placement. I'm going to act as if you weren't really meaning to be quite as snarky as that sounded.

If you want to see an example of "snarky", go back and read your original question to Amidon.

Gary was trying to be helpful and merely giving his opinion. He is entitled to his opinion just as you are.

[sperman]

What is the penalty if the rule is violated?

FTDR?

[pvhendrix]

What is the penalty if the rule is violated?

FTDR?

I know you didn't!!!!

[sperman]

I guess since the rule only applies to SS and Production, the penalty is a bump to open.

I hope we don't have any stages like this in Barry.

[Thomas H]

Thank you, I'm quite conversant with the rules of SS and Production equipment placement. I'm going to act as if you weren't really meaning to be quite as snarky as that sounded.

If you want to see an example of "snarky", go back and read your original question to Amidon.

Gary was trying to be helpful and merely giving his opinion. He is entitled to his opinion just as you are.

Hm. I've read my original question to Amidon several times, as have several other people. I'm not sure where any sort of attitude appears. If it comes across that way, please PM me and let me know where it happens so I can moderate my writing.

I don't have any problem with Mr. Steven's opinions. I don't know him, but I assume that since he is the A5 director, he has a lot of experience with USPSA and knows the rules. I don't recall saying anything about his knowledge base.

He made statements based on Amidon's response to him. I questioned the situation that he presented, because I didn't understand it.

He then said "All of this is pretty easy to understand if you understand the rules of SS and Production equipment placement." ---and yet, it is obvious that based on the many responses to this thread, that it _isn't_ easy to understand. His phrasing seemed personal, not general.

So I said, "I'm going to act as if you weren't really meaning to be quite as snarky as that sounded." ---as I said, I don't know Mr. Stevens, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. If you don't know someone, you can only base you opinion on what they are writing, not how "they would have said/meant it." If he isn't ever like that (which several people have said) then it isn't a problem. My questions in later posts, were simply that---questions based on the situation. If he took them as personal arguments, I certainly did not mean them to come across that way.

I made that list of situations because I think that this "mag in the hand" thing is going to be a real problem, one that most people apparently don't understand. My list was made in the hope that someone could explain how this is going to work to me, because I thought I understood the situation up until Mr. Amidon's second response, after which I don't get it at all.

I've seen many people hold a mag while moving and shooting. (Including a number of Production GMs.) Based on the way this discussion has gone, those people should have been moved to Open division for doing so? I think this will be a surprise to them, and I'd certainly like to clearly understand what is and isn't allowed before I head to my first major in June.

[Thomas H]

I've seen many people hold a mag while moving and shooting. (Including a number of Production GMs.) Based on the way this discussion has gone, those people should have been moved to Open division for doing so? I think this will be a surprise to them, and I'd certainly like to clearly understand what is and isn't allowed before I head to my first major in June.

...and apparently the answer is yes, they should have been moved to Open.

I emailed DNROI again, because I didn't understand the (to my mind) apparent conflict between his email to me, and his email to Mr. Stevens. Here is the complete text of his response, including what I originally wrote to him. (Including my apology to him since I posted his first response before I asked permission, which was stupid of me.)

DNROI wrote, in response to my email (which is copied below his response):

Tom,

Just because you see someone do it, even GM's, doesn't mean it is allowed, if people are confused about this, that would mean that some of the RO's are as well.

People have been moved to Open from production division for having a small piece of tape on the slide, others for having the wrong equipment, others for having a magazine in the front pocket, obviously many haven't been caught for one reason or another.

For Production and Single Stack it would always be best to have the equipment in the proper place, that is behind the hip bone. Does that seem fair when Limited and Open competitors can do it, does it really matter as you are not competing against them?

Stage designers have to be aware of the rules when they set stages up, an empty gun start is fine, but consideration as to the location of the magazines is also important, there are many fair way's to do this, empty gun with the first mag used on the table and rest in the pouches, empty gun with mags spread around the stage on top of shelves, barrels etc. is fine, but this still does not relieve those shooting in the Production/Singe Stack divisions to be aware of their equipment restrictions.

If you have an empty gun start with all mags on the table, do the initial load, put the rest of the magazines in your back pocket and unless the WSB does not allow you to use pockets, your good to go.

Feel free to post in you desire.

-----Original Message-----

From: J. Thomas Howard [mailto:jthhapkido@windstream.net]

Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 10:31 AM

To: 'DNROI'

Subject: RE: Rule question regarding moving with a magazine in hand...

Sir:

First, I need to start by apologizing. When I last asked you a question, I then took your response and added it to the discussion that was occurring on the BrianEnos forums. I had mentioned that was where the discussion had started, and so I added what you said to our understanding there.

But that was a private communication from you to me, and I should have not done that until I had asked for, and received permission from you, to do so.

I apologize for that. I can't believe I forgot, and I'm sorry that I did so. Even if you wouldn't have had a problem with my posting it, that doesn't change the fact that I should have gotten permission first.

I will _not_ do that again.

I do have a followup question---based on what your email to me said, and your correspondence with Gary Stevens. They seem contradictory to me, so I have a couple of clarification questions.

You said, as a response to my original email: "If the competitor wishes to put themselves at a potential disadvantage by carrying their next reload in their hands on those stages with staged mags, let them, it is "Freestyle after all"."

You also said: "Some common sense is needed occasionally, the purpose of the rule in question is under a normal start, yes all ammo should be in retaining pouches, but there is nothing that states when you can or cannot remove them to use as you travel through the COF."

After that, I thought I understood the situation. However, Mr. Steven's posted your response which states: "You are correct in the statement below that as long as they were at the table or barrel, reload to heart's content, but once you leave, the mag for Production/Singe Stack divisions must be behind the hip bone. The question asked did not stipulate division, so the answer was a general answer with the comment that common sense had to be used, thus, if the division restricts it, it cannot be done. Of course, if you wanted to carry the mag in your hand and shoot strong hand, you could have the hand behind the hip bone. :-)"

...so I guess what is not clear to me is exactly how we are to apply this rule. For Production/SS, magazines need to be behind the hip bone before any movement starts, and stay there until an actual reload is occurring? So that unless a reload is actually directly occurring, a magazine _cannot be in a shooter's hand_ forward of the hip bone?

I don't mean to be excessively dense here---I've just seen Production GMs move and shoot 2-handed through a course of fire while holding a magazine clasped to the grip of the gun, and so I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that they all should have been moved to Open division for violating division rules.

At the DoubleTap championship last year, there was one stage in which the unloaded firearm was in one position, and the magazines started in another.

A number of people (in various divisions, including Production) ran to the magazines, stuffed two into pouches, kept the other in their hand, then ran to the gun to load it. Should they have been moved to Open?

Thank you for any clarity you can give.

May I have permission to post your response on the BrianEnos forums in the thread regarding this topic? There are a number of us who are very confused on at what point we need to worry about being moved to Open for having a magazine in our hand.

Thank you.

So---apparently if you are in Production or Singlestack divisions, if you do anything other than reload immediately with a magazine in your hand in front of your hipbone, you are going to Open.

That's my current level of understanding, at least. Anyone else read it differently?

(I note also that Mr. Stevens was right---it is all about the Production/SS equipment requirements. I've just never thought of my hands as "equipment" before.)