OH MAN...BUBBLE BURST TODAY !

[GrumpyOne]

Yeah...I'm just an old timer venting...HOWEVER..I went back and found the one youtube club whose videos I was watching..seems like this club either doesnt know the rules or perhaps is just shooting a "local rules" thing because the count at some of the target groupings was above the rules of 8 rounds per location. SO it could have been they were just doing their thing.

However let us remember that the Principles of USPSA also state:

1) Courses of fire should follow a practical rationale. (last time the "practical rationale" of high ammo count happened to me I was a U.S. Army Ranger and we were in Central America. But I was shooting an M16 at the time...'nuff said) The North Hollywood shootout was an armed confrontation between two heavily armed bank robbers and officers of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) in the North Hollywood district of Los Angeles on February 28, 1997. Both perpetrators were killed, eleven police officers and seven civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the perpetrators and the police.

I would say that in light of the above mentioned shootout, 32 rounds per stage is practical....There are many other numerous accounts of more than 32 rounds being fired while not in the military.2) Practical competition is diverse, never permitting unrealistic specialization of either technique or equipment. (perhaps I am harking to much on the word "practical" here.

Open division is exactly that, diverse. They don't limit the caliber (per se), anything 9x19 and larger may be used, they do limit magazine length, which actually does limit the spray and pray you mentioned earlier (DVC). It doesn't matter if you have a 200 round mag, if you can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn, it doesn't do you any good to have a 200 rounder. Besides, a 200 round mag is "Unrealistic" in a pistol competition...

So I pose the questions...

When did uber-capacity take over in USPSA, and so much so that they felt the need to create several other divisions in order to balance out the fairness?

It wasn't "uber capacity" that took over USPSA...It was the red dot...That is what started it all. When there was no limits on anything, those shooting a SS 45 with iron sights were up against someone shooting a 38 super with a red dot (TGO)...It caught on, much like any other advancement in technology. Would you blast someone at a drag strip or NASCAR race for a piece of technology that made them go faster than the competition, or farther between fuel ups on pit row? The whole point of different divisions is to provide a division for anyone and everyone, regardless of ability or money. That is why Production only shoots against Production (and has very specific rules for that division), Limited against Limited (and has very specific rules for that division), L-10 against L-10(and has very specific rules for that division) , and Open against Open (which has a few rules for that division). It stopped the "Arms Race", so to speak...

Did high count courses of fire come first, or did the introduction of Uber-capacity pistols create the desire for higher count courses of fire? (which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

The original intent of the hi cap mag was not to introduce more targets to the course of fire, but to give the shooter more ammo to shoot at the targets he/she was presented, thereby allowing them to "make up" shots that were missed, allowing them to shoot faster.

You know guys, perhaps I am harping too much on the word "practical" here. I admit that.

Yes, I think you are harping on that a bit...

Edited April 5, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[Pro2AInPA]

Yeah...I'm just an old timer venting...HOWEVER..I went back and found the one youtube club whose videos I was watching..seems like this club either doesnt know the rules or perhaps is just shooting a "local rules" thing because the count at some of the target groupings was above the rules of 8 rounds per location. SO it could have been they were just doing their thing.

However let us remember that the Principles of USPSA also state:

1) Courses of fire should follow a practical rationale. (last time the "practical rationale" of high ammo count happened to me I was a U.S. Army Ranger and we were in Central America. But I was shooting an M16 at the time...'nuff said)

2) Practical competition is diverse, never permitting unrealistic specialization of either technique or equipment. (perhaps I am harking to much on the word "practical" here.

So I pose the questions...

When did uber-capacity take over in USPSA, and so much so that they felt the need to create several other divisions in order to balance out the fairness?

Did high count courses of fire come first, or did the introduction of Uber-capacity pistols create the desire for higher count courses of fire? (which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

You know guys, perhaps I am harping too much on the word "practical" here. I admit that.

At the risk of getting in trouble . . . I think there's another pistol game that may be more what you're looking for . . .

The skills are practical, the positions we shoot from are practical, some of the guns we shoot are practical, the speed is practical, the accuracy requirement is practical, etc.

The round count is fun, because this is what we do on the weekend, not the the invasion of Panama. You might be ok with paying your money, and helping at the match (you will help, right?) and standing in the sun waiting for the other 70 shooters to get your turn ... only to shoot 8-10 rounds, but me, I'd like to have some fun while I'm out there. Certainly if you are confronted by 18 armed opponents I recommend you run the other way and call for an air strike instead of charging with a handgun, but this ain't snake eater school, its a friking hobby.

In other news, where I live Open is nearly dead, or at least it feels that way despite of handful of very talented open shooters. The Fun times are in Production and Limited as far as I can tell, and those guns are quite practical and they don't cost a lot. You can make yourself a decent limited Glock for $800 or so, which is what you used to pay a gunsmith to install real sights and polish the crap out of a factory Colt in the "good old days". And you still only had 7 rounds or 8 if you felt adventurous with your magazines. No thank you, round capacity has a very good purpose, it wasn't solely invented for the benefit for competition shooters. Neither was the .38 Super for that matter.

I would venture a guess that open has low participation due to your state's laws. Open is alive and well across the border here in PA.

[TerryO]

In other news, where I live Open is nearly dead, or at least it feels that way despite of handful of very talented open shooters.

Open is alive and well in Texas. If you're in a 10 round state Open 10 doesn't sound like much fun.

IMHO USPSA has something for everyone. From Production to Open you can spend 3 or 400 dollars to 5000 plus. I think that makes it interesting. For my part I have at least one of each for each division and I've come to shoot. 32 round stages are great. When our local clubs do have a short stage, less than 24 rounds, I feel cheated, but I don't complain, I just think it's all great.

[ong45]

Hey Gonzo, the 80's called and they want their Ernie Hill holster back

[Vlad]

When I say that open is dead, I don't mean we don't have people shooting in open, we do. We just don't see people transitioning to open from other divisions. A new shooter may start in production or single stack and move to Limited, but most of the open shooters around here are the same ones that shot open when I started 10 years ago or aging folks switching due to eyesight. It isn't really about the laws, and it isnt really about a lack of competition either, JJ shoots at our clubs for example. I just think its the local flavor. A local flavor I personally like.

[Vlad]

Hey Gonzo, the 80's called and they want their Ernie Hill holster back

Did you tell them how ridiculous their big hair high school photos are going to look 20 years down the line?

[MVZ]

Hey Gonzo, the 80's called and they want their Ernie Hill holster back

Cold. Just COLD

[Nik Habicht]

Each division addresses practical in a different way. Production addresses practical by testing the DA/SA, DAO, SafeAction pistols that are popular today in a crucible that weans out the weak. Single Stack does the same with the resurgent 1911 platform. Limited 10, well sometimes you have to do unpractical things due to silly laws.

L10 addresses practical for those guns that don't neatly fall into Production, or Limited, or to an extent Singlestack. It serves a purpose as a place where folks with oddball guns can play with what they brung or own.....

[JimmyZip]

Gonzo,

I was really surprised to see what had happened to IPSC, now USPSA when I got back into shooting several years ago. I read you posts and it brought a chuckle and a smile to me. But I will agree with many to say that in the years since I came back to the practical shooting thing, I am really glad for the direction it took in the time I was away. I like going to matches and shooting production a lot. It reminds me in some ways of where I had hoped the sport would go many years ago when I first started. I like how if you are shooting production, you have to plan around the course and around the reloads/limits of the gun. Single stack and L-10 are the same. They really are practical in that they test your shooting capabilities. That is they test your ability to use your pistol in an efficient manner, with accuracy and economy of motion being tantamount to survival/winning in mind.

THe good old times are now. Let the good times roll.

[bill d]

It wasn't "uber capacity" that took over USPSA...It was the red dot...That is what started it all. When there was no limits on anything, those shooting a SS 45 with iron sights were up against someone shooting a 38 super with a red dot (TGO)...It caught on, much like any other advancement in technology. Would you blast someone at a drag strip or NASCAR race for a piece of technology that made them go faster than the competition, or farther between fuel ups on pit row? The whole point of different divisions is to provide a division for anyone and everyone, regardless of ability or money. That is why Production only shoots against Production (and has very specific rules for that division), Limited against Limited (and has very specific rules for that division), L-10 against L-10(and has very specific rules for that division) , and Open against Open (which has a few rules for that division). It stopped the "Arms Race", so to speak...

[/b]

It was Jerry Barnhart, not TGO......Jerry was the man!

[bill d]

Each division addresses practical in a different way. Production addresses practical by testing the DA/SA, DAO, SafeAction pistols that are popular today in a crucible that weans out the weak. Single Stack does the same with the resurgent 1911 platform. Limited 10, well sometimes you have to do unpractical things due to silly laws.

L10 addresses practical for those guns that don't neatly fall into Production, or Limited, or to an extent Singlestack. It serves a purpose as a place where folks with oddball guns can play with what they brung or own.....

What guns fall in between these divisions?

[Pro2AInPA]

Each division addresses practical in a different way. Production addresses practical by testing the DA/SA, DAO, SafeAction pistols that are popular today in a crucible that weans out the weak. Single Stack does the same with the resurgent 1911 platform. Limited 10, well sometimes you have to do unpractical things due to silly laws.

L10 addresses practical for those guns that don't neatly fall into Production, or Limited, or to an extent Singlestack. It serves a purpose as a place where folks with oddball guns can play with what they brung or own.....

What guns fall in between these divisions?

Hi cap .45s like the Paras or 2011s in .45. Glock 21. Glock 35 without mag extensions. Just to name a new.

[Nik Habicht]

Each division addresses practical in a different way. Production addresses practical by testing the DA/SA, DAO, SafeAction pistols that are popular today in a crucible that weans out the weak. Single Stack does the same with the resurgent 1911 platform. Limited 10, well sometimes you have to do unpractical things due to silly laws.

L10 addresses practical for those guns that don't neatly fall into Production, or Limited, or to an extent Singlestack. It serves a purpose as a place where folks with oddball guns can play with what they brung or own.....

What guns fall in between these divisions?

Beretta 96, any sig in .40, Any 1911 in .45 with ten round mags, really any .40 -- especially when the owner shoots factory -- that isn't made by Glock, STI, SVI, M&P or XD.....

[Jim Norman]

Piling on, a Sig or XD with stock mags, Shoot minor in Production or major in L-10. With 6 divisions, you can shoot just about anything and be competitive. What to shoot like it was 1990? OK, volunteer to build a match with all low round count stages, call it a 'Blast From The Past Match' let everyone know that all mags must fit flush and that the match will be scored overall only. Won't be USPSA, but do it, see how it works out. No one says you can't. Heck I have a Colt 4" with a 2-port comp, single stack, maybe add a Dr sight and shoot open-8?

Do this every week? No. DO it once a year for a special match at the club? Could be fun. We have been known to run an 8 stage match in the winter allowing only 5 shots per stage and only 2" revo and 3" autos. It has been know to sell out, but it is a once every two year deal.

You like short low round count stages? design a couple and offer to build them. Maybe put two in one pit. It all works if you make it work.

But as others have said, don't ask me to drive an hour or two or more to shoot 6 stages of box to box or port to port on 12 round stages and expect me to come back.

Well designed courses with 16 rounds are not bad, poorly designed courses with 32 suck. We had a multi-gun match one time that wanted 4 hits on paper just to bump the rounds up. Bad Plan. Make the shots interesting, challenging, but achievable and don't do silly things and you will have people filling your match.

[sfinney]

Old classic iron sighted comped single stack guns don't have a Division to play in.... (outside of Steel).

Or Browning Hi-powers, either in 9 or 40.

Granted, most of these guns will fit in some Division, by rule, but in reality can never be competitive as other guns.

Not saying you can't shoot them... but how many do you see on match day?

And some of the most challenging stages I've shot have been 16 round speed shoots. But most matches do not offer those any more, its all about round count, with targets dropped in just to make the magic 32.

Edited April 5, 2011 by sfinney

[JakeMartens]

there is no good division for the Hi Power

(L10 minor, but who wants to shoot minor, that is just silly when the division has major scoring)

[Jim Norman]

and I can't shoot my Broomhandle Mauser, or my Luger either. So?

Hey I know, why not hold a Browning Hi-Power Special. Do it at your club, you have a load of people with them? Announce a month or two in advance that you will award a special class at your August match for competitors that shoot Limited Minor with a BHP. DO the same thing with all those that want to shoot their Open SS Steel guns (although a lot of them are set up to run very light loads just for steel)

And who says we have to have a division for everyone? Anyone want to shoot a comped revo? You are either in Open or you go shoot steel. So?

There are a lot of guns out there that don't have a neat niche in USPSA, but there area also a lot that do. I'd say more that do then don't. Heck my Ruger SA Black Powder Revo doesn't have a home in USPSA either. Again So?

[Powder Finger]

The high round count stages began appearing before wide spread hi-cap guns, 1911 38 supers were the gun of choice.

TGO held off from dot sights longer than most top level shooters.

I'm not sure I know about this 8 round per postion rule or the 32 round max rule, but then I just show up to shoot not talk rules.

I don't see where the divisions compete with each other that's why they exist is it not.

If someone feels they are at a disatvantage because they got hosed in the overall standings because of their gun then get a different gun if that floats their boat. In that respect it is the OLD days before there were any divisions. Really, how long did it take any of us to dump our comped .45 with 9 rounds and step up to a 11 round 38 super?

Of course then you dealt with a huge mental disatvantage since everyone asked why you shot .38 STUPID.

That's all I got to say about that matter.

[Singlestack]

I started shooting in 2000. From what I hear of the "good old day's", I'm not sad I missed them. I think "run what you brung" would suck. I like the divisions. I think going to a match and shooting little box to box stages would suck. I like 32 round open field courses. I think shooting against a pro shooter heads up would suck. I have a day job, this is a hobby. I like the classification system. I think if it were anymore "practical" than it is now, it would suck. I'm not a mall ninja. This is a hobby and I'm not in training for anything other then being better at this game.

So as 'ol Merle Haggard would say, "I think we're living in the good 'ol days".

[392heminut]

The round count is fun, because this is what we do on the weekend, not the the invasion of Panama. Certainly if you are confronted by 18 armed opponents I recommend you run the other way and call for an air strike instead of charging with a handgun, but this ain't snake eater school, its a friking hobby.

+1

[Flexmoney]

Winter is over. Lets go shoot!

[ima45dv8]

Yeah...I'm just an old timer venting...HOWEVER..I went back and found the one youtube club whose videos I was watching..seems like this club either doesnt know the rules or perhaps is just shooting a "local rules" thing because the count at some of the target groupings was above the rules of 8 rounds per location. SO it could have been they were just doing their thing.

Just to be clear, the rule limits the number of rounds required from a given point to be no more than 8. If those targets are available from multiple points in the course of fire, you can allow more than 8 rounds to be fired from one position and still be rules compliant.

I wouldn't want to go back to the 80's-style matches. I don't have the legs for those short shorts or the knee-length tube socks.

Ugh!

[GrumpyOne]

It wasn't "uber capacity" that took over USPSA...It was the red dot...That is what started it all. When there was no limits on anything, those shooting a SS 45 with iron sights were up against someone shooting a 38 super with a red dot (TGO)...It caught on, much like any other advancement in technology. Would you blast someone at a drag strip or NASCAR race for a piece of technology that made them go faster than the competition, or farther between fuel ups on pit row? The whole point of different divisions is to provide a division for anyone and everyone, regardless of ability or money. That is why Production only shoots against Production (and has very specific rules for that division), Limited against Limited (and has very specific rules for that division), L-10 against L-10(and has very specific rules for that division) , and Open against Open (which has a few rules for that division). It stopped the "Arms Race", so to speak...

[/b]

It was Jerry Barnhart, not TGO......Jerry was the man!

My mistake....But it was the dot that changed it....

[GrumpyOne]

Yeah...I'm just an old timer venting...HOWEVER..I went back and found the one youtube club whose videos I was watching..seems like this club either doesnt know the rules or perhaps is just shooting a "local rules" thing because the count at some of the target groupings was above the rules of 8 rounds per location. SO it could have been they were just doing their thing.

Just to be clear, the rule limits the number of rounds required from a given point to be no more than 8. If those targets are available from multiple points in the course of fire, you can allow more than 8 rounds to be fired from one position and still be rules compliant.

I wouldn't want to go back to the 80's-style matches. I don't have the legs for those short shorts or the knee-length tube socks.

Ugh!

I think I saw you in shorts one time....

I thought you were riding a chicken!

[sfinney]

Well, he said he's been gone a while maybe hasn't heard of IDPA.

I remember high tech in Limited being 10 round mags in SS .45s, and even .45 Paras..... then some .40s....(the early to mid 90's, not 80's) but once the S_I widebody .40s started rolling out in large number for Limited (not just Open), there really was no turning back. Those were game changers. And the game changed to meet the capabilities of our higher capacity guns.

Now we have tried to put the genie back in the bottle with Production and Single Stack (to a certain degree Lim 10 but that was for legal reasons in some states).... and we are running around with 5 or 6 mags, and lots of reloads, but still on 30 or 32 round stages.

I can see where it would be culture shock to see today's top shooters blazing away vs. what was the "norm" about 20 or 30 years ago, if that was what you were used to. Its not just equipment that has changed, shooters have gotten faster over the years too. (And before I'm called on it, I'd wager the IPSC gods of yesteryear that are still competitve today are also faster shooters today than they were then too.)