Down loading Pistol capacity at match

[JZELEK]

Rant mode on. I just got back from a local club match were on 2 stages shooters competing in CDP,ESP ( I shot ESP ) and SSP had to start with only 6 rounds maximum in the gun. These stages were both 18 round  field courses scored vickers which forced the pistol shooters to do 2 reloads. I asked one of the SO's why we had to start with our pistols down loaded and the answer shocked me. The reason given was that this gives the revolver shooters an even playing field! I was under the impression that the only time you could have a guns magazine capacity lowered to 6 or any number was on limited vickers stages only. Also revolver shooters only compete against other revolver shooters so why down load the pistol shooters? It really pissed me off! who in their right mind carrys 6 rounds in their gun when they can have 9 or 11. What do you think?

(Edited by JZELEK at 12:23 pm on Feb. 23, 2002)

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree, thats completely bogus.  I'm not even sure if it's legal by IDPA rules, but what can you do...  As long as everyone has to compete on the same playing field, I'll except it, even it if isn't tactically sound.

[Nik Habicht]

Actually a course designer may specify any quantity in the gun to start with that he wishes as long as everyone can load to that quantity.  (In other words, no specifying 9 rounds to start because it leaves 45 shooters with 7 round mags out in the cold.)  I think that the reasoning for this particular instance however is moronic.  I've shot at clubs occasionally where they'll specify a small number of rounds to start to force a reload at a particular point, most of the time this also involves reholstering between strings without being allowed to top off, so that you can't anticipate your reloads as cleanly.

[JZELEK]

Nik, at a SO training class that I went to using the latest rule book (Green one) it was explained to me that on only limited vickers stages could a shooter be made to down load his weapon. This is only done on skill test stages using limited vickers scoring to make all the shooters perform a reload at the same place in the stage. Is this true or can an SO do this on any type of stage such as limited, field etc.?

[titandriver]

 Having never shot an IDPA match, I've got a question for you guys. Is the rulebook just a "suggestion" on how to run a match, left up to local clubs to use the ones they like. Or are you supposed to follow the whole thing?

 If clubs are supposed to follow the rulebook, why would you accept "leveling of the playing field" for any reason? According to the IDPA site, there is no "overall" winner and each division competes only within their  division.

  Sounds like "revo-man" is the MD at that particular club that downloads everybody.

[ErikW]

Yup I was forced to load 6 only at a so-called IDPA match. Same stage where I fired the first 5 and dropped the empty mag on the ground.

[Nik Habicht]

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Quote: from JZELEK on 7:52 am on Feb. 24, 2002

Nik, at a SO training class that I went to using the latest rule book (Green one) it was explained to me that on only limited vickers stages could a shooter be made to down load his weapon. This is only done on skill test stages using limited vickers scoring to make all the shooters perform a reload at the same place in the stage. Is this true or can an SO do this on any type of stage such as limited, field etc.?

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J,

The SO does not control the course design.  The course designer can come up with virtually anything (within the rules) to make the Course of Fire challenging.  That includes specifying a low # of rounds in the gun to start or not allowing reloads between strings of fire.  Obviously common sense should prevail ---- and while a course designer shoudn't discriminate against revolver shooters, he shouldn't cater to their wishes at the expense of the other classes either.

[JZELEK]

Nik, I just found this in the rule book. Its in competition rules #14.

Autoloaders MUST begin any Vickers count string of fire requiring a re-load with the pistol loaded to maximum capacity or the maximum capacity allowed in that division. In the case of SSP division this would be 11 rounds total.

So according to the rules If your shooting an autoloader and the course of fire is 10 rounds or higher ( because this would require a person shooting CDP to do a Reload)and is scored Vickers you have to start with a fully loaded gun!

(Edited by JZELEK at 10:22 am on Feb. 26, 2002)

(Edited by JZELEK at 2:02 pm on Feb. 26, 2002)

[Neil Casper]

We have an IDPA "Practice" session every Tuesday evening at an IDPA club.  It's not really a match.  We do some rather different stages and strings to practice certain skills.  Occasionally this will require that we download our mags to force a reload just for the practice.

I shoot a wheel gun most of the time.  Several times the SO has offered to alter the COF to six round strings so I could compete on a more even keel.  I always tell them that I carry a wheel gun by choice and expect no special treatment.  

[MSM]

J, remember one thing, that since this is not a major match, IDPA gives the local clubs a little leeway in their stages.  That whole match was basically a skills exercise to prepare shooters for the winter championship.  I didn't hear you complain about the all steel stage set up a few weeks before which is specifically prohibited in IDPA.  Did you?  Relax, and remember that the SO are working their butts off at these matches to set up and design stages for your enjoyment.  You took the SO class, how about giving a little hand sometime instead of always receiving?  

[vincent]

This doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  As long as the rest of the scenario fit the IDPA course rational then starting with 6 is OK.  We commonly do other odd things like start with the gun in a box or unloaded on a table with a loaded mag nearby.  Neither of these situations is likely to happen to me in real life.  Starting with 6 could happen if you think of the start of that stage as "Act II" of gun fight where you fired some rounds in "Act I".

On the other hand I don't agree with the concept of "revolver neutral" because as the rules say there is no high overall and SSR shooters are only competing against each other.  The number of rounds or reload points will be different for SSR, CDP, and SSP/ESP - just deal with it!

[JZELEK]

It doesn't matter if its a major match or not. The rules are the rules. Autoloaders cannot start a Vickers scored stage that requires a reload without being loaded to maximum capacity for that division. If you want to start with the guns empty thats allright as long as you can load them to maximum after the buzzer sounds. Downloading the guns to 6 to give revolver shooters an even playing field is just plain wrong and not in the spirt of IDPA.

MSM,

Did I mention at what club did this take place?

No!

Did I say that the SO's weren't doing a good job.

No!

Stay focused on the topic if your able to!

[MSM]

Yep, you are right J, rules are rules and "Must" is a strong word when it is mentioned in the book, so since rules are rules, perhaps the SO's should give an FTDR every time a shooter dumps an extra round downrange or downloads to 10 in SSP/ESP just to make the reload more convenient in a 12 round string, that happens alot and certainly isn't in the "spirit of IDPA" is it?.  What I am getting at and this is exactly focused on topic is that you need to cut the SO's some slack, and like I said before, they are busting their butts designing, setting up, and running the stages for you the shooter.  It seems to me that you have three choices, 1)stop complaining and enjoy the match, 2) Don't shoot the sport if it is so problematic to you, or 3)  design some stages of your own, and give a hand, which I know will be welcomed. (#3 is probably the best choice).  

[idpassr]

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Quote: from JZELEK on 12:21 pm on Feb. 23, 2002

Rant mode on.  The reason given was that this gives the revolver shooters an even playing field!

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This is bogus.  IDPA is set up where SSR doesn't compete against CDP doesn't compete against ESP doesn't compete against SSP.  Arranging a match where you have bottomfeeders with 6 round mags against roundguns with 6 rounds, the bottomfeeders(with proper feeding) will or should win every time.  

SSR is a separate class.  I'm usually one of 2 or 3 revolver shooters at our local matches.  If our MD ever suggested...well, he wouldn't since he's a revo shooter as well...nah, that was someone who misread something...

just my thoughts,

GB

Austin

[Glock Princess]

Hey guys, just a beginner MD here, but here's my thoughts.  If I wanted to put together a 18 round string of fire which requires 2 reloads, there are a couple of options.  I could mandate reloads at certain points.  Since we don't want to get in the habit of telling people exactly how to shoot a stage, we don't do this.  It limits creativity.  Rather, I would limit the number of rounds in the first mag, and then let the shooter take the course as he/she wishes.  It's not often in IDPA that a shooter goes to the second mag, so it is good practice to do so on occasion.

[JZELEK]

Competition rule #14 from the green book requires that all autoloaders MUST start Vickers scored stages that require a reload with a full magazine in the pistol for that division (11rds for SSP, 9rds for CDP).

For some reason course designers think that this rule doesn't apply to them!

If a course designer wants to down load pistol shooters it has to be done on Limited Vickers stages only.

I can find nowhere in the book that says course designers don't have to follow the rules if they don't want to!

(Edited by JZELEK at 4:44 pm on Mar. 19, 2002)

[midvalleyshooter]

Scenario : You have been involved in a defensive encounter. Before you can do your "Tactical reload" during the "lull in the action" you are required to take part in another defensive encounter. At the start of this second encounter you have 6 rounds in your weapon.

This is what Vincent was refering to and is a valid start of a Vickers count stage under the IDPA rules.

Chill,

Keith

PS My apologies to those that don't care to think of their firearms as weapons and other nasty things like "defensive encounters."

[JZELEK]

Yes, It would be a valid scenario under IDPA rules (Having the shooter start with 6 rounds) only if the course of fire was scored Limited Vickers or didn't require an autoloader to reload.

If this same scenario was scored Vickers and had 5 targets each scored with 2 hits minimum on each (10rounds total) it wouldn't be IDPA legal because a CDP shooter would have to make a reload.

(Edited by JZELEK at 10:02 am on Mar. 21, 2002)

[midvalleyshooter]

J I can read the rulebook. But I think Competition Rule #14 is to keep folks from downloading to gain a competitive advantage. Which is a good thing. What I don't think it does is prevent a COF like I described. Of course that is my opinion and we may disagree as gentlemen sometimes do:)

Keith

[JZELEK]

The reason I came to this conclusion is that there is only one rule in the book about pistol capacity (not revolver capacity) and that rule is pretty clear.

This rule only covers Vickers scored stages requiring a reload.

They could of easily added Limited Vickers scored stages to it if they wanted to. Also this is the only rule I could find that uses the word MUST in capital letters.

I think that they didn't include Limited Vickers because of the classifier (Which is scored Limited Vickers). If they did you couldn't start pistol shooters with only 6 rounds to force a reload during the classifier.

However some stage designers thought that if its in the classifier they could do it whenever they wanted to.

Down loading can be done but only on Limited Vickers stages or Vickers stages not requiring a reload.

Even worse some decided this was a way to even the playing field between autoloaders and revolvers. Which totally flys in the face of the spirt of IDPA that the divisons shouldn't compete against one another.

Maybe in the future they will change it but for now its the rule.

(Edited by JZELEK at 7:30 am on Mar. 21, 2002)

[Mark Perez]

I've sent the following question to info@idpa.com :

Is downloading a magazine allowed in a Ltd.Vickers stage or does rule 14 apply??

I'll post the results as soon as they respond.

[Mark Perez]

Here is the reply from idpa

re: downloading magazines in a ltd vickers stage.

Is this allowed or must the shooter start every stage at full capacity as per rule 14??

Mr. Perez,

You are allowed to download on limited Vickers stages dependant on course design.

[TGO]

In my experience, the only time I have been loaded short was to force a reload at a certain point. The whole idea of leveling the playng field between divisions is silly if you accept the IDPA plan to only allow similar kinds of equipment to compete against themselves. At a club level match where everyone wants to know who is the best and bragging rights are at stake, (which is why we keep score by the way) we are allowed a great degree of latitude. This is to keep everyone, with their own interpretation of the principles happy. There is little harm in that. Remembering there is not to be an overall winner at an event makes it sort of moot to try to make the level playing field as that can only really be accomplished amongst the participants in  each division. This said, I always am in the middle of the inter-division rivalries at our home events, dueling it out with my buddies in classes other than I may be shooting, and that is some of the fun in getting out there and competing. Remember, it IS a GAME! that's why we use a timer.

Later,

Rob

[Duane Thomas]

"I've sent the following question to info@idpa.com :

Is downloading a magazine allowed in a Ltd.Vickers stage or does rule 14 apply??"

Mark,

You asked the wrong question. It should have been, "Is downloading a magazine allowed in a VICKERS stage" which is what we use for scenarios, not Ltd. Vickers which is used for standards exercises. Of course you can be made to download on a Ltd. Vickers stage; we do it in the classifier.

[Duane Thomas]

I once shot an indoor match in which the last three stages went like this: You're firing on two of those ovoid blue pistol targets, you know the ones, they're about 9" tall by 6" wide. I forget how far away they were, it wasn't far, like seven to 10 yards. Your gun began empty. With a revolver the cylinder was closed, with an auto the slide was forward on an empty chamber, magazine out of the gun. The gun is sitting on the "table" in front of you in a shooting bay. At the timer's buzzer you had to load the gun, fire six rounds on one target, reload and fire six more on the second target. Auto shooters could only load six rounds into the first mag so they had to do their reload from slidelock, and you could only have six rounds in the second mag as well, so no make-up shots (for that "level playing field" with revolvers, natch). You've got to load, fire six, reload, fire six for all three strings. For the first string you had 30 seconds, for the second 20, and for the third 10.

No problemo! you say. Here was the catch. The revolver shooters could start with loaded speedloaders. The auto shooters had to start with all 12 rounds out of the magazines, and at the timer's buzzer you had to physically load six rounds into each mag before you could even start the stage. The match designer/SO (and why yes, AAMOF, he was a revolver shooter) was VERY smug about the fact that no auto shooter would be able to get off all 12 shots on the 10 second string.

Well, I did it gang, and didn't drop a point on any of the three strings. And lemme tell you, on string 3 I was SMOKIN' - to start that stage I had those 12 rounds laid out on the shooting table in front of me like surgical instruments. The guy running the stage told me afterwards, "I can't believe you did that in 10 seconds with a perfect score. Of course, the reason I set the stage up like this was to let auto pistol shooters know their gun's only faster to reload than a revolver if they start with already loaded magazines." I just stared at him for a few seconds. I mean, he was a really nice guy, and I wanted to be polite, but all I could think of to say was, "Um, yeah....if I ever start carrying my spare ammo for my auto pistol as loose rounds in my pocket instead of in spare magazines that could be....really important information to have."