spanky Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed oneprocedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting. Hypothetically speaking, if I fall out of the shooting area, can I jump into the air and fire shots at the target (obviously not many since fat white kids can't jump high ) without incurring any penalties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) Hypothetically speaking, if I fall out of the shooting area, can I jump into the air and fire shots at the target (obviously not many since fat white kids can't jump high ) without incurring any penalties? I've heard stories about someone doing that - there was a situation where at one point in the COF you could jump and have clear view of all the targets outside the fault lines. He just bounced and engaged --- according to lore --- maybe someone that had first hand experience would like to shed some history? ETA: I'm with you on the fat white kids thing... I don't go high when i do jump Edited March 23, 2011 by aztecdriver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. So you could leap out of the shooting area and engage a target or two before making the initial contact outside of the shooting area? I suppose it would be legal but I dont see how it would be a benefit. The targets are available from somewhere else in the COF and the time itd take to make the jump, getting your footing and get back on track would be a waste. funny to watch, bad on the HF tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. Cite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hypothetically speaking, if I fall out of the shooting area, can I jump into the air and fire shots at the target (obviously not many since fat white kids can't jump high ) without incurring any penalties? I've heard stories about someone doing that - there was a situation where at one point in the COF you could jump and have clear view of all the targets outside the fault lines. He just bounced and engaged --- according to lore --- maybe someone that had first hand experience would like to shed some history? ETA: I'm with you on the fat white kids thing... I don't go high when i do jump IIRC was Kippi Latham. During the course you advanced to a shooting box where there was a very low target at about 4 feet, she basically ran over the box placing one foot in and jumped and shot while in the air and kept on going. I have an old Front Sight around here with the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. So you could leap out of the shooting area and engage a target or two before making the initial contact outside of the shooting area? I suppose it would be legal but I dont see how it would be a benefit. The targets are available from somewhere else in the COF and the time itd take to make the jump, getting your footing and get back on track would be a waste. funny to watch, bad on the HF tho I do it all the time. I wouldn't do it if it was a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. Cite? Search. (I'm pretty sure this one has been covered here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hypothetically speaking, if I fall out of the shooting area, can I jump into the air and fire shots at the target (obviously not many since fat white kids can't jump high ) without incurring any penalties? I've heard stories about someone doing that - there was a situation where at one point in the COF you could jump and have clear view of all the targets outside the fault lines. He just bounced and engaged --- according to lore --- maybe someone that had first hand experience would like to shed some history? ETA: I'm with you on the fat white kids thing... I don't go high when i do jump IIRC was Kippi Latham. During the course you advanced to a shooting box where there was a very low target at about 4 feet, she basically ran over the box placing one foot in and jumped and shot while in the air and kept on going. I have an old Front Sight around here with the photo. Wasn't that Lisa Munson? I remember someone referring to the "Air Munson" rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. So you could leap out of the shooting area and engage a target or two before making the initial contact outside of the shooting area? I suppose it would be legal but I dont see how it would be a benefit. The targets are available from somewhere else in the COF and the time itd take to make the jump, getting your footing and get back on track would be a waste. funny to watch, bad on the HF tho I do it all the time. I wouldn't do it if it was a waste. got any videos if it?! haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. Cite? Actually, doesn't the first post cover it? 10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed oneprocedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting. If you don't re-establish yourself in the shooting area, you're still faulting. Now, if you fall out with one foot, then lift that foot into the air, you've re-established yourself. You can now jump one-legged off the foot in the shooting area and engage your targets. That, and you got serious mad ninja skillz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. Cite? Actually, doesn't the first post cover it? 10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed oneprocedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting. If you don't re-establish yourself in the shooting area, you're still faulting. Now, if you fall out with one foot, then lift that foot into the air, you've re-established yourself. You can now jump one-legged off the foot in the shooting area and engage your targets. That, and you got serious mad ninja skillz! Right but all the rule states is that a shot fired "while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line... If I step out of the shooting box and jump in the air I am neither in contact with the ground or an object, nor am I gaining support or stability through contact with an object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97606&view=findpost&p=1115507 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Wasn't that Lisa Munson? I remember someone referring to the "Air Munson" rule. Might have been both. I recall Lisa in FS at about 2001 or 2002. I think there was also a pic of Kippi. I know I posted a great pic of DBChaffin in air shooting from one of the early Ohio matches. (OK..the pic wasn't great, but the air was) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 Unless I'm totally missing something, that thread seems to support my argument. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97606&view=findpost&p=1115688 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97606&view=findpost&p=1115694 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97606&view=findpost&p=1115709 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 no touch no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I must be having comprehension issues again. Are you saying that, given a COF with an array that must be engaged only from box A, and a single target that must be engaged only from box B, that it would be leagal to engage the array from box A, step out of the box, jump toward box B, and engage the target before touching the ground? Or do you mean that you would need to land in the box for the shots to be legal? Yes. You do not need to land in "B" for the shots to be legal, as long as you are not touching the ground or any other object outside of box B. And, just for clarity, shooting while leaping is, I suspect, pretty rare, but shooting while moving isn't, and there are times when you are entering a designated shooting area and both feet could be off the ground. Here's the complete rule: 10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting. There is no rule in the book about what constitutes being "in" a box, only what constitutes being out of a box (or faulting a line). A more common specific example would be a competitor who is running into a shooting area (box), and has both feet off the ground when he fires his first shot. This is not a fault, since he's not touching outside the designated shooting area and firing a shot. Since there is no "in the box" definition, he is in the box as long as he's not touching outside. Hope this helps. Troy You don't need to establish being in a box, you just need to not be out of it. This makes it all clear, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Unless I'm totally missing something, that thread seems to support my argument. http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1115688 http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1115694 http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1115709 You might be missing some of the other 135 posts in that thread (I will probably merge these two threads, btw). Troy was going to get with NROI with the question, but we haven't heard the result of that. Some of the scenarios that were mentioned later in that thread that need to be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 I must be having comprehension issues again. Are you saying that, given a COF with an array that must be engaged only from box A, and a single target that must be engaged only from box B, that it would be leagal to engage the array from box A, step out of the box, jump toward box B, and engage the target before touching the ground? Or do you mean that you would need to land in the box for the shots to be legal? Yes. You do not need to land in "B" for the shots to be legal, as long as you are not touching the ground or any other object outside of box B. And, just for clarity, shooting while leaping is, I suspect, pretty rare, but shooting while moving isn't, and there are times when you are entering a designated shooting area and both feet could be off the ground. Here's the complete rule: 10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting. There is no rule in the book about what constitutes being "in" a box, only what constitutes being out of a box (or faulting a line). A more common specific example would be a competitor who is running into a shooting area (box), and has both feet off the ground when he fires his first shot. This is not a fault, since he's not touching outside the designated shooting area and firing a shot. Since there is no "in the box" definition, he is in the box as long as he's not touching outside. Hope this helps. Troy You don't need to establish being in a box, you just need to not be out of it. This makes it all clear, right? I missed that post but this is pretty much the specific scenario I was thinking about. A more common specific example would be a competitor who is running into a shooting area (box), and has both feet off the ground when he fires his first shot. This is not a fault, since he's not touching outside the designated shooting area and firing a shot. Since there is no "in the box" definition, he is in the box as long as he's not touching outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Not to play devil's advocate, but what if the WSB states all shots must be taken from within shooting boxes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I just performed a search of the rule book, and the only place that "establish" occurs is in reference to your classification. Maybe your thinking of the NFL rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Not to play devil's advocate, but what if the WSB states all shots must be taken from within shooting boxes? I've seen many a shooter shoot while in the air around the last wall or corner. So, if the WSB says from within the fault lines, are you earning a procedural? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I just performed a search of the rule book, and the only place that "establish" occurs is in reference to your classification. Maybe your thinking of the NFL rulebook. Our Written Stage Briefing almost always say to engage targets from within the shooting area. We allow starting outside the shooting area. The way some are looking at this, a shooter may never have to go into the shooting area at all. They could just jump up and down and shoot. Careful we don't end up like our IPSC counterparts...who read this as always needing to start from within the shooting area and have only one shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Once you make contact outside the shooting area...you are faulting until you establish yourself back into the shooting area. I don't see that 10.2.1 says that at all -- it requires touching something outside, for the procedural to apply.... If it's legal to shoot while jumping/falling out, how is that different from shooting while jumping/falling in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 The way some are looking at this, a shooter may never have to go into the shooting area at all. They could just jump up and down and shoot. Careful we don't end up like our IPSC counterparts...who read this as always needing to start from within the shooting area and have only one shooting area. I'm o.k. with that -- it's not likely to be a winning strategy on too many stages..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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