67 LS1 Camaro Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Our local gun club is USPSA affiliated. For now, our multi-gun matches is followed by USPSA rules. According to the rules, a loaded gun can be abandoned so long that the safety is on. One of the club's officials wants to make a club rule that requires the gun to be unloaded before abandoning. If this rule is to be broken , that would be a DQ. I know that his intent is to make a safer play. I say we can stipulate it in the stage procedure/briefing,of all stages . So if would be a penalty if not followed. If a shooter gets DQ'ed for abandoning a loaded gun with safety ON. Wouldn't that be a big argument on the rulebook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 We face the same dilema at out local club. My opinion is that scince out club rules that a gun thats abandoned with ammo in it is a DQ, we are not following USPSA rules. We are simply using our own rules based in part on the USPSA rules. The danger in this (according to some folks) is that it opens the door for other "club rule changes" that ultimately leads to other rules/scoring/targets and confusion that tend to cloud things even more, as you find some who want changes for their own personel reasons and not the good of the game. In some instances though it works in the opposit manner, by allowing some extra creativity. Though it may be confusing at first to newcomers used to a by the book USPSA match. we do not advertise our multigun matches as USPSA events because of the differances. We are running what is refered to as outlaw multigun matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Why do they want make all the guns unloaded before abandoning? A gun with the safety on is perfectly safe. Whats the method to their madness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Why do they want make all the guns unloaded before abandoning? A gun with the safety on is perfectly safe. Whats the method to their madness? The first answer that comes to mind is "Some people are dangerous". Its harder to check if someone put the safety on before they smacked down the gun somewhere. For example, unless the RO picks up an 1187 themselves and checks its kinda hard to see if the safety was on, or the shooter put it on after the picked it up to unload. M&P/Glocks don't have safeties and you could snag the trigger on something as you abandon them. Etc Etc ... Now, I'm not saying that a big match with lots of "grown ups" and experienced shooters these are likely to be problems, but turn the knob to local club level, where some of the people that might show up might be only 80% sure of what end the bullets come from, or where the safety is, and this might be their first 3gun match, and you get a bit more worried about these things. You might instinctively want to tell these folks to not show up, but they have to start somewhere, and in my opinion it is safer if they start at a match which people who can watch them and correct them before they try what they saw on TV in their backyard cause those mean people at the range didn't let them shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) I would advise against the "unloaded abandonment" rule. We run our matches under IMA SMM3G rules which allow abandonment of a loaded gun provided it is set to safe. The key to safety is good abandonment barrels so the gun is pointing down into the dirt and cannot fall once abandoned. Over the years we have had thousands of shooters abandon loaded pistols, rifles and shotguns hundreds of thousands of times and I can never recall an AD from an abandoned gun. Visually checking the safety is on is actually pretty easy for the RO, including on a stock 11-87 (which I have). Even for Glocks without a safety, it is no less safe than holstering the pistol. Your folks may think that requiring an unload before abandoning is "safer", but actually our experience is the reverse. Requiring an unload on the clock is actually more likely to result in an unsafe act because, when the adrenaline is pumping, asking the competitor to perform an additional and unnecessary fine motor operation introduces needless risk - either the muzzle has a tendency to wave about (particularly on a long gun) or the shooter is tempted to "speed unload" by rapidly shooting the gun empty rather than racking out the unfired round. Hot abandonment long ago proved itself to be perfectly safe - why experiment with a more risky practice unless local range rules or laws require it ? Edited March 21, 2011 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prreed10 Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I would advise against the "unloaded abandonment" rule. We run our matches under IMA SMM3G rules which allow abandonment of a loaded gun provided it is set to safe. The key to safety is good abandonment barrels so the gun is pointing down into the dirt and cannot fall once abandoned. Over the years we have had thousands of shooters abandon loaded pistols, rifles and shotguns hundreds of thousands of times and I can never recall an AD from an abandoned gun. Visually checking the safety is on is actually pretty easy for the RO, including on a stock 11-87 (which I have). Even for Glocks without a safety, it is no less safe than holstering the pistol. Your folks may think that requiring an unload before abandoning is "safer", but actually our experience is the reverse. Requiring an unload on the clock is actually more likely to result in an unsafe discharge because, when the adrenaline is pumping, asking the competitor to perform an additional and unnecessary fine motor operation introduces needless risk - either the muzzle has a tendency to wave about (particularly on a long gun) or the shooter is tempted to "speed unload" by rapidly shooting the gun empty rather than racking out the unfired round. Hot abandonment long ago proved itself to be perfectly safe - why experiment with a more risky practice unless local range rules or laws require it ? I agree. We abandon loaded weapons at our match. Always in a secure barrel pointed down for rifle/shotgun and a rectangular bucket facing a berm for pistol. Unloading is similar to holstering hot on the clock - they give me conscerns for safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Tell him a speed unload is dangerous in that I have personally seen 3 guns blow up in 40 cal as the primer hit the ejector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 No local rules, follow the rules in the rule book or dont use the USPSA name. If you dont like a rule campaign to change it. Until it does follow the rules. Nothing more frustrating than to try to play a game that gets rules made up as you go along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Build bunkers and abandon the guns with safety on. If the gun is empty, safety need not be on, but if a round is in, then safety is on. Stage design plays an important part, the bunkers MUST be placed so that no one can be in front of an abandoned gun. The RO, MUST NOT clear weapons until the stage crew is behind him. Bunkers can be barrels or tubes buried in the range floor or a cradle that is sufficiently deep and angled so that the gun is pointed to the side berm and down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 You guys are all "preaching to the quire" so to speek. Unfortunately (as in the case at my club) the powers that be will not be swayed, as they feel its their club and it will be their way, period. (all in the mind of safety, according to them) I suspect that clubs of similar structure as ours will have similar (and familiar) experiances. There is not much choice in my neck of the woods, so I say my peace respectfully, follow THEIR rules and have a good time anyway. Joe, I hear ya, thats why our multi gun matches are not advertised as bieng associated with USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67 LS1 Camaro Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Why do they want make all the guns unloaded before abandoning? A gun with the safety on is perfectly safe. Whats the method to their madness? Well,the reasoning of this club official,he feels that the Glock is unsafe because there is no safety.( I KNOW THIS IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TOPIC)... This became an argument Glock vs. 1911 safety. He really doesn't understand the Glocks trigger system. I disagreed on making it a club rule because it would make following a rulebook pointless.We had a multi-gun match about a month ago and he wanted to rule it "gun unloaded before abandoning" AFTER I just finished the stage breifings. I denied his request and told him we would have to discuss about it before any changes we make. I put in alot of time and thought into stage design.Most of them,by the time you are abandoning the gun ,you should be DRY ,Slide Locked, or Bolt Open(if you had no malfunctions or extra shots)..........Forward moving ,abandoned gun on table(pointed in safe direction),or plastic drum, far from the next array of targets.If its a side-to-side stage,pistol abandon(rifle transition) would be low to the ground,on a carpet,where it cant accidently fall if it was on a table. Edited March 21, 2011 by 67 LS1 Camaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Ask him how many times he has seen or heard of guns not on safe going off just lyiing there when no one is touching them... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Speed unloads are dangerous....'nuff said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninemmbill Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Speed unloads are dangerous....'nuff said! +1 ... you are much more likely to have a problem trying to perform a rapid speed unload than leaving a pistol by itself with the safety on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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