Mags that don't belong

[mhs]

Sometimes Range Officers will conduct equipment check. From right there they'll give you a warning if your equipment is not applicable to your division...and writes a warning on your scorecard...if not, they'll just bump you to open... then the hassle of arbitration comes in.... Buy yourself a cheap barney mag would be the best thing....

How can you arb this? If you've already shot a stage, I don't see a way.

[Nik Habicht]

Aztec,

nope -- by use of the 33 rd. mag, Open is not available either, i.e. the moment it is used on a stage, there is no division for that competitor to compete for score in. That competitor is shooting for fun, just like the guy who goes subminor.....

Now, nice stats folks will often either post or send such a shooter unofficial scores -- so they can see where they would have placed if they had been using legal equipment or ammo....

Which rule supports your interpretation?

A few:

5.5.1 Magazines and speed loading devices must comply with the provisions of the relevant Division.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match,the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Master’s decision on these matters is final.

Appendix D1, Item 8: Maximum magazine length 6.742” (171.25mm)

That lays it out pretty cleanly.....

What I'm not seeing is a rule that says that you can only be bumped to open if your preceeding stages have been compliant with it. 6.2.5.1 and 6.2.5.2 are the only rules you quoted specifically concerning being bumped, and they don't seem to impose any such restriction.

5.5.1, 6.2.3, and the Section D appendices do a pretty good job of laying out the requirements to play the game in a given division -- including Open. (Ask yourself -- what is the difference between the competitor who enters the match with a Glock 26, a couple of 33 rounds mags and selects Open as his division, and that competitor's identically equipped brother who selects Production and only loads the mags to ten rounds? Answer -- there's no difference, they're both equally non-compliant with all six divisions, and are shooting for fun only.) It is possible for a shooter to enter the match with equipment that doesn't comply with any division. If that's caught before the competitor attempts a course of fire, then the match staff can make some recommendations, and possibly help the competitor get compliant. (We do that at almost every match with first time competitors -- who often don't know what division they should shoot, with the gun they brought.)

Now once a competitor makes his first attempt, he owns the results -- and that's not limited to points and penalties. Bust a division, and the rule book says we should move you to open -- but 6.2.5.1 doesn't do away with the requirements of the other sections of the rulebook. If the competitor has already busted the requirements for open, he's out of luck -- just like the guy who subminors at chrono.....

Bottom line advice for all competitors: Read the rulebook and start thinking about it in its entirety, ask questions before the match starts, ideally take an RO class....

[JerryShoots]

You have got to be kidding me!

I posted the original thread to share some information that I had learned and to poll the group for opinions about it. Not to give an excuse for folks to nip at one another! Calm down and go back to page one and read what I wrote. Then if you have something useful to add do so. As far as the useful posts I see here thank you. As I stated in the first post I already decided to replace the mag with an 8 rounder which I have already done. I shot a match with it and it worked out just fine.

For the record consider this while your arguing rules to each other...

What was the original intention of the 10 round mag in this scenario? Was it to gain some advantage or sneak by the RO's with an illegal mag? NO! It was a question of finances and the cost of coming up with 1 more compliant mag when this 10 rounder was just sitting useless. Many of us don't have another 20 dollars to throw into another mag after paying for our gun, our ammo, gas to travel, meals, room and board, entry fees. The INTENTION of the mag in the scenario was to save money but still show respect to the rules. 20 dollars is 20 dollars and wasting resources like a good mag is wasting resources.

Some of you deserve and have my thanks for the offerings of advise and the intelligent input and interpretation of the rules. Those of you who used my topic to mistreat or verbally abuse one another ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

[mhs]

...Also what are your combined thoughts on the matter of carrying loose rounds about the range?

Thanks!

Jerry

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Gotta be on your belt. I'm not clear what the penalty would be for doing this during the COF. It seems very extreme, but it looks like it might be a bump to open or even shoot for no score.

[JerryShoots]

Thanks man. Regarding the loose rounds I meant carrying one in the pocket, Loading the first mag, chambering a round, removing said mag and placing the extra round in it. Eliminating the need for a Barney mag at all. That was suggested to me but goes way against what I've been taught about safe handling of ammunition.

[aztecdriver]

Thanks man. Regarding the loose rounds I meant carrying one in the pocket, Loading the first mag, chambering a round, removing said mag and placing the extra round in it. Eliminating the need for a Barney mag at all. That was suggested to me but goes way against what I've been taught about safe handling of ammunition.

1. Arguing (most of us in good intent) rules is how we find the answers. For one, I'd rather have the argument here, than on the course of fire between RO and contestant. It seems nit picky, but an experienced shooter in this sport will nit pick their way to a reshoot if you don't watch what is going on. That's the intent of the discussion, for the most part. If your intent on the post is to not have that type of discussion - then post so in the beginning next time - because it's what happens here.

2. Intention, as your original scolding mentions, has no place in the rules - therefore, we don't consider it. The rules state that having a 10 round magazine while shooting single stack during the COF makes the equipment illegal. We know why the guy was using it - that's not the problem - the rules do not permit it. Maybe some other guy comes to the line with some other method of gaining advantage with said configuration - and because we ignored the rule because it sounded trivial - he's now got precedent to argue against. The rules treat everyone the same - regardless of intent. So while it sucks for your friend that doesn't want to spend another $20 - it sucks equally for all.

3. Per the quotation above, this is done regularly, and quite alright. Come to the line with 1 round in a pocket, all your mags loaded. MHS covers this well. I'd suggest that 1 round in a shirt pocket has almost an infinitesimal chance of being ignited. Maybe while someone is stabing you - but then, you would have other problems, right? If someone is carrying two or 3 instead of one - It would be almost impossible to enforce because I'm not going to go reaching in your pockets to count (to avoid said stabing mentioned prior) and you are not going to drop a mag out, safe/holster, fill the mag, and reload a round or two because you ran out.

Hope that helps.

[mhs]

In production, my normal practice had been to have a mag with 11 rounds in my front pocket. I changed that to putting the 11-round mag in my back pocket. On empty gun starts I've been taking one round out of the 11-round mag, and putting it in my front pocket. Now that I've really looked at the rules, I guess I'll leave the loose round in my shooting bag. I'd be shocked to be called on a loose round in my front pocket, but it does seem illegal.

[aztecdriver]

In production, my normal practice had been to have a mag with 11 rounds in my front pocket. I changed that to putting the 11-round mag in my back pocket. On empty gun starts I've been taking one round out of the 11-round mag, and putting it in my front pocket. Now that I've really looked at the rules, I guess I'll leave the loose round in my shooting bag. I'd be shocked to be called on a loose round in my front pocket, but it does seem illegal.

Yeah, but that seems so complicated still! I just load 6 mags to 10. Barney off the 5th in the belt, and load the 6th. If I get needing that *one* round - I've already done something stupid and the stage is shot anyway. There is no *remembering* unloaded start - it just is. Same way, everytime.

[JerryShoots]

"while someone is stabbing you" lol XD

Yeah I agree that that should be just fine. Thanks for the input

[spanky]

If you are bringing enough mags to the CoF, charge your gun with the last mag on your belt (leaving 7 in that one) then load up your start mag. If the CoF comes down to the last bullet on your belt then you've probably tanked the stage anyway.

[spanky]

In production, my normal practice had been to have a mag with 11 rounds in my front pocket. I changed that to putting the 11-round mag in my back pocket. On empty gun starts I've been taking one round out of the 11-round mag, and putting it in my front pocket. Now that I've really looked at the rules, I guess I'll leave the loose round in my shooting bag. I'd be shocked to be called on a loose round in my front pocket, but it does seem illegal.

Yeah, but that seems so complicated still! I just load 6 mags to 10. Barney off the 5th in the belt, and load the 6th. If I get needing that *one* round - I've already done something stupid and the stage is shot anyway. There is no *remembering* unloaded start - it just is. Same way, everytime.

Great minds think alike, apparently.

However, my procedure is the same as mhs's was. 11 in my dedicated start mag (whose baseplate is marked differently than the others) and i pop a round out and put it somewhere. Somewhere is completely random since it depends on where I am when I realize we are doing an unloaded start since I have to do it THEN or I am likely to forget.