Mags that don't belong

[Skydiver]

And for people interested in the front pocket issue, see this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123213&view=findpost&p=1392157

ChuckS, thanks for trying to steer this thread back towards a discussion about equipment compliance in general.

I can't find the thread right now, but as I recall the gist of the original post on that thread was a Match Official was going from bay to bay at a match reminding people that the butt of their guns had to be above the top of their belt (5.2.7.2). It was just a friendly reminder, but not a warning that was directed at anybody in particular, but ultimately it did remind people to make sure their gear was in compliance with the rule. It can be just like a friendly reminder to people about mag capacity limits during the briefing for an unloaded start stage.

[ChuckS]

Make Ready, Use 10 round magazine with 1 round in it to barney up. After you remove the mag from the gun, throw it over your shoulder for good luck - problem solved. You never have it on your person after the start signal - it's not used during a COF and you can use what you have to barney. Never put it on your belt, and leave it in your bag for empty starts.

This complies, in my opinion - anyone object?

FWIW:

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

[ima45dv8]

Make Ready, Use 10 round magazine with 1 round in it to barney up. After you remove the mag from the gun, throw it over your shoulder for good luck - problem solved. You never have it on your person after the start signal - it's not used during a COF and you can use what you have to barney. Never put it on your belt, and leave it in your bag for empty starts.

This complies, in my opinion - anyone object?

Uh.....yeah. It was.

(After Make Ready, right?)

[aztecdriver]

Make Ready, Use 10 round magazine with 1 round in it to barney up. After you remove the mag from the gun, throw it over your shoulder for good luck - problem solved. You never have it on your person after the start signal - it's not used during a COF and you can use what you have to barney. Never put it on your belt, and leave it in your bag for empty starts.

This complies, in my opinion - anyone object?

Uh.....yeah. It was.

(After Make Ready, right?)

So, let's explore this a little further for MY own edification if not, other peoples. 1. ) There is a difference between an non-division compliant piece of equipment being used prior to the start signal, and a LEGAL piece of equipment used with TOO MANY rounds. I look at them as being one in the same, they are both an illegal magazine, so as long as I FIX it before the "start signal", which is the case when a production person walks to the line with a magazine loaded with 11 and then chambers. 2.) Which rule? Appendex Dx? 3). If so, why doesn't the same apply to L10 and production using 11 rounds loaded.

I want to know why my assumption here is wrong. Or was it just the way I said it

[aztecdriver]

Found it -- 5.5.1. Then appendix Dx will give you the limitation (say 10) after the start signal. Always learning - guess I can't use my Glock 33rnd magazine to barney for production

[Skydiver]

The rules you are looking for is Appendix D3.9 (L-10) and D4.9 (Production) which both say "Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal" for "Maximum ammunition capacity". (Emphasis mine.)

Likewise for Single Stack there is an equivalent D5.9:

Yes, maximum rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal

-Major Power Factor - 8 rounds

-Minor Power Factor - 10 rounds

For revolver it's a little more interestingly written for D6.9

No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload

e.g. Having a 10, 9, 8, 7 round revolver in Revolver division is legal. Just make sure that you only fire 6 and then do a reload. Firing 7 will bump you to open.

[Skydiver]

Found it -- 5.5.1. Then appendix Dx will give you the limitation (say 10) after the start signal. Always learning - guess I can't use my Glock 33rnd magazine to barney for production

Good job! I suspect the Glock may not fit in the box with the 33 round magazine, just like the OP's SS gun will not fit in the box with a 10 round magazine :-)

Edited March 19, 2011 by Skydiver

[aztecdriver]

I also wanted the 5.5.1 part - that basically confirmed that a 10 round mag inserted in the SS will not fit in the box, therefore it doesn't comply with division. So, I can't barney with 170mm tube in limited and so on. i had thought if you complied with division requirements at the start signal, you were fine - and that is not the case. The round limitation and language does indeed come from that part of each Dx depending on limited cases, but thinking the limited barney concept through, I got to the point where only 5.5.1 makes sense.

Thanks

The rules you are looking for is Appendix D3.9 (L-10) and D4.9 (Production) which both say "Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal" for "Maximum ammunition capacity". (Emphasis mine.)

Likewise for Single Stack there is an equivalent D5.9:

Yes, maximum rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal

-Major Power Factor - 8 rounds

-Minor Power Factor - 10 rounds

For revolver it's a little more interestingly written for D6.9

No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload

e.g. Having a 10, 9, 8, 7 round revolver in Revolver division is legal. Just make sure that you only fire 6 and then do a reload. Firing 7 will bump you to open.

[JakeMartens]

Had a shooter last year at the Indiana SS/Prod match that was using a hi cap Glock with a base pad on it as a barney and putting in his pocket, not a problem.

But after a staged was cleared after ULSC, somehow the mag was out there on the course of fire.....He won open

[Nik Habicht]

Make Ready, Use 10 round magazine with 1 round in it to barney up. After you remove the mag from the gun, throw it over your shoulder for good luck - problem solved. You never have it on your person after the start signal - it's not used during a COF and you can use what you have to barney. Never put it on your belt, and leave it in your bag for empty starts.

This complies, in my opinion - anyone object?

Make ready signifies the start of the course of fire. Use the mag, you might go to open......

6.2.5.1 doesn't use "after the start signal," it uses "anytime during the course of fire" which begins with "Make Ready" and ends with "Range is Clear."

[Nik Habicht]

Since this post didn't state nationals or local, I'll throw this out. Are you gonna bump to open some guy that shows up at a local match to shoot SS to open cause he barney'd with a ten round mag and stuck it in his front pocket? Maybe your not the type we need to promote the sport.

Mildot

A few years back, prior to the addition of "after the start signal", a very good production shooter used to barney from a 10 round Glock mag that would take 11. No one at the local matches thought much about it and it certainly did not give him any advantage. He traveled back east to an area match, pulled out that mag and loaded as usual and was bumped to open at the first stage. Not following the rules is never a good idea.

Later,

Chuck

And back in 2003, I think, there were a few folks at the Factory Gun Nats who wound up shooting in Open -- a non-recognized division at that match -- for that very reason....

[mhs]

Had a shooter last year at the Indiana SS/Prod match that was using a hi cap Glock with a base pad on it as a barney and putting in his pocket, not a problem.

But after a staged was cleared after ULSC, somehow the mag was out there on the course of fire.....He won open

Why didn't he get bumped to open for just having it with him when the COF began?

[wide45]

Found it -- 5.5.1. Then appendix Dx will give you the limitation (say 10) after the start signal. Always learning - guess I can't use my Glock 33rnd magazine to barney for production

Good job! I suspect the Glock may not fit in the box with the 33 round magazine, just like the OP's SS gun will not fit in the box with a 10 round magazine :-)

I don't think the 33 round mags fit the 170+ mag gage, so instead of going to open, you are now shooting for no score. Oops.

[aztecdriver]

Found it -- 5.5.1. Then appendix Dx will give you the limitation (say 10) after the start signal. Always learning - guess I can't use my Glock 33rnd magazine to barney for production

Good job! I suspect the Glock may not fit in the box with the 33 round magazine, just like the OP's SS gun will not fit in the box with a 10 round magazine :-)

I don't think the 33 round mags fit the 170+ mag gage, so instead of going to open, you are now shooting for no score. Oops.

Clarifying wides post a little - because I had to look it up - the relevant part of 6.2.5

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score

[mhs]

Found it -- 5.5.1. Then appendix Dx will give you the limitation (say 10) after the start signal. Always learning - guess I can't use my Glock 33rnd magazine to barney for production

Good job! I suspect the Glock may not fit in the box with the 33 round magazine, just like the OP's SS gun will not fit in the box with a 10 round magazine :-)

I don't think the 33 round mags fit the 170+ mag gage, so instead of going to open, you are now shooting for no score. Oops.

Clarifying wides post a little - because I had to look it up - the relevant part of 6.2.5

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score

I think it's a bump to open, if available:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

After the bump the competitor would need to comply with open equipment rules.

[aztecdriver]

I think it's a bump to open, if available:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

After the bump the competitor would need to comply with open equipment rules.

Hmmm.. that's an interesting question I pondered. If you've already used the equipment, does it mean you have no score, because said used equipment doesn't meet any divisional requirements - or do you have a chance to change it when you get bumped.

We already had that discussion, when we talked about altering your rig - as well as adding a cmore to your production gun. No need to rehash thread, but I agree. Get bumped because equipment is illegal, get a chance to put that 33rd mag in the bag. Shooting in open is already a disadvantage enough - shooting for no score with division legal remedies available would be over kill.

[Nik Habicht]

I think it's a bump to open, if available:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

After the bump the competitor would need to comply with open equipment rules.

Hmmm.. that's an interesting question I pondered. If you've already used the equipment, does it mean you have no score, because said used equipment doesn't meet any divisional requirements - or do you have a chance to change it when you get bumped.

We already had that discussion, when we talked about altering your rig - as well as adding a cmore to your production gun. No need to rehash thread, but I agree. Get bumped because equipment is illegal, get a chance to put that 33rd mag in the bag. Shooting in open is already a disadvantage enough - shooting for no score with division legal remedies available would be over kill.

Aztec,

nope -- by use of the 33 rd. mag, Open is not available either, i.e. the moment it is used on a stage, there is no division for that competitor to compete for score in. That competitor is shooting for fun, just like the guy who goes subminor.....

Now, nice stats folks will often either post or send such a shooter unofficial scores -- so they can see where they would have placed if they had been using legal equipment or ammo....

[aztecdriver]

Aztec,

nope -- by use of the 33 rd. mag, Open is not available either, i.e. the moment it is used on a stage, there is no division for that competitor to compete for score in. That competitor is shooting for fun, just like the guy who goes subminor.....

Now, nice stats folks will often either post or send such a shooter unofficial scores -- so they can see where they would have placed if they had been using legal equipment or ammo....

Well, there is a conflict here based on what mhs said. So, I'm going to have to find some opinions. This is more of an RM call - but i'd like to be one of those someday...

[mhs]

I think it's a bump to open, if available:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

After the bump the competitor would need to comply with open equipment rules.

Hmmm.. that's an interesting question I pondered. If you've already used the equipment, does it mean you have no score, because said used equipment doesn't meet any divisional requirements - or do you have a chance to change it when you get bumped.

We already had that discussion, when we talked about altering your rig - as well as adding a cmore to your production gun. No need to rehash thread, but I agree. Get bumped because equipment is illegal, get a chance to put that 33rd mag in the bag. Shooting in open is already a disadvantage enough - shooting for no score with division legal remedies available would be over kill.

Aztec,

nope -- by use of the 33 rd. mag, Open is not available either, i.e. the moment it is used on a stage, there is no division for that competitor to compete for score in. That competitor is shooting for fun, just like the guy who goes subminor.....

Now, nice stats folks will often either post or send such a shooter unofficial scores -- so they can see where they would have placed if they had been using legal equipment or ammo....

Which rule supports your interpretation?

[EkuJustice]

So by that token is every shooter that shoots production or SS now shooting when at unload and show clear they drop the mag, shove it in the front pocket, and then rack the slide?

[aztecdriver]

So by that token is every shooter that shoots production or SS now shooting when at unload and show clear they drop the mag, shove it in the front pocket, and then rack the slide?

No - there is a difference between a piece of equipment that is not legal for the division and the place that a legal piece of equipment is retained, and we are not talking about where it's been retained at this point.

[Nik Habicht]

Aztec,

nope -- by use of the 33 rd. mag, Open is not available either, i.e. the moment it is used on a stage, there is no division for that competitor to compete for score in. That competitor is shooting for fun, just like the guy who goes subminor.....

Now, nice stats folks will often either post or send such a shooter unofficial scores -- so they can see where they would have placed if they had been using legal equipment or ammo....

Which rule supports your interpretation?

A few:

5.5.1 Magazines and speed loading devices must comply with the provisions of the relevant Division.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match,the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Master’s decision on these matters is final.

Appendix D1, Item 8: Maximum magazine length 6.742” (171.25mm)

That lays it out pretty cleanly.....

[mhs]

Aztec,

nope -- by use of the 33 rd. mag, Open is not available either, i.e. the moment it is used on a stage, there is no division for that competitor to compete for score in. That competitor is shooting for fun, just like the guy who goes subminor.....

Now, nice stats folks will often either post or send such a shooter unofficial scores -- so they can see where they would have placed if they had been using legal equipment or ammo....

Which rule supports your interpretation?

A few:

5.5.1 Magazines and speed loading devices must comply with the provisions of the relevant Division.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match,the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be notified as soon as possible. The Range Master’s decision on these matters is final.

Appendix D1, Item 8: Maximum magazine length 6.742” (171.25mm)

That lays it out pretty cleanly.....

What I'm not seeing is a rule that says that you can only be bumped to open if your preceeding stages have been compliant with it. 6.2.5.1 and 6.2.5.2 are the only rules you quoted specifically concerning being bumped, and they don't seem to impose any such restriction.

[Yagi]

Sometimes Range Officers will conduct equipment check. From right there they'll give you a warning if your equipment is not applicable to your division...and writes a warning on your scorecard...if not, they'll just bump you to open... then the hassle of arbitration comes in.... Buy yourself a cheap barney mag would be the best thing....

[aztecdriver]

Sometimes Range Officers will conduct equipment check. From right there they'll give you a warning if your equipment is not applicable to your division...and writes a warning on your scorecard...if not, they'll just bump you to open... then the hassle of arbitration comes in.... Buy yourself a cheap barney mag would be the best thing....

Where does this warning come from? One of the things I hate to do is that inspection and tell a competitor he's shooting a stock G17 against a comped Bedell hand cannon. There's no leeway in giving a warning, written or verbal, unless it's on the very first stage of the match - then I can tell them to go fix it first.