Mags that don't belong

[JerryShoots]

First of all thank you Gary for all your help both here and in our recent conversations. I thought I would pose one of the questions I've asked of match directors and Of Gary here for all to see and allow the gurus to respond for our mutual benefit! Now this question comes with a back story...

Since I first started shooting I've been taught that loose rounds in pockets have a potentially disastrous habit of finding their way into a weapon. Because of that I've always kept an extra mag in my pocket or in a separate mag pouch (usually one that snaps shut or of a different type than my others so as not to be confused as a mag I intend to use during the CoF) I insert this mag at the "Load Make Ready" and chamber one round from it. Then I pop it out and put it away. Finally I put in my start mag and holster or table my weapon. That being said heres the rule issue....

I have Power mags for my new Single Stack gun(By new I mean last years L-10 gun ) and they are 8 rounders in .45 ACP. However I don't have an extra to use for the above mentioned purpose of loading up. What I do have though is a pile of 10 round Power Mags from L-10. So my question is even though I have a mag on me that is not eligible to be used in Single Stack can I still load from it before the star signal if I have no intention of using it during the stage? Technically its on my belt but I'd be fool to reach for it and worse a cheat. Neither of which is the case. Now for my part after a chat with Gary Stevens I opted on his advice to cough up the cash for a legal division mag just in case I run into an RO who feels unsure of the other mags legality. Still the question remains valid enough to share with you folks.

What do you think? Simple issue or too close to the line? Also what are your combined thoughts on the matter of carrying loose rounds about the range?

Thanks!

Jerry

[steel1212]

If its a 10 round mag and you go to chrono the chrono guy can ask to use any mag you have. If you have that mag and he wants to use it and it doesn't fit the box welcome to open. Now most local matches don't have chrono stations but I think it would be wise to find some cheap 7 round mag somewhere and just put it in your back pocket.

[Nik Habicht]

Corey's giving you smart advice.....

I don't carry a Barney mag for Production. I load with my second to last mag from the belt, and then swap it out for the last mag on the belt. That has me starting stages with 60 rounds, 11 in the gun and 49 on the belt....

If I need the mag with 9 rounds in it, it's been a disastrous run. Haven't needed it in years....

[Matt Cheely]

I certainly wouldn't use a 10 round mag on my belt. But if it was kept in a pocket where you couldn't get to it for a stage I wouldn't see it as a problem.

But it's only $20 for a new mag.

[Corey]

For SS, I carry 6 mags on my belt plus the one in my gun. I just barney up out of the very last mag. Like Nik said, if I have to go to the last mag and my round count is in the 50s my stage is tanked anyway and one missing round isnt going to bother me.

[wide45]

APPENDIX D5 item 7 Maximum size Handgun and all magazines

Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938” x 6” x 1.625”) (227.01mm x 152.40mm x 41.28mm)

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other- wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accor- dance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed

Using a non division compliant mag to charge the gun is a bump to open. Do you feel lucky?

Edited March 18, 2011 by wide45

[Loves2Shoot]

If you don't have the mag on you (ie get rid of it by dropping it after you rack the round in) when the buzzer goes off, you shouldn't have a problem. If you stash it in your pocket, then you could have an overzealous RO cause you much pain. I would think it is just like using 11 rounds in your start mag in Production and racking the first one in on the LAMR leaving the proper 10 rounds in the at the start signal, and that is common practice.

[wide45]

Not the same. There is a specific exemption spelled out in the rules for number of rounds loaded in a mag relative to the start signal. It does not cover anything else.

9 Maximum ammunition capacity Yes, maximum rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal -Major Power Factor - 8 rounds -Minor Power Factor - 10 rounds

[Skydiver]

If you don't have the mag on you (ie get rid of it by dropping it after you rack the round in) when the buzzer goes off, you shouldn't have a problem. If you stash it in your pocket, then you could have an overzealous RO cause you much pain. I would think it is just like using 11 rounds in your start mag in Production and racking the first one in on the LAMR leaving the proper 10 rounds in the at the start signal, and that is common practice.

An overzealous RO would cause you pain at the time you insert the magazine. As pointed out by wide45 but with my emphasis:

APPENDIX D5 item 7 Maximum size Handgun and all magazines

Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938” x 6” x 1.625”) (227.01mm x 152.40mm x 41.28mm)

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other- wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accor- dance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed

Using a non division compliant mag to charge the gun is a bump to open. Do you feel lucky?

The mag capacity rule kicks in "after the start signal". Size restrictions apply "during the (entire) course of fire".

[A little bit of thread drift: In another thread, Amidon replied with his opinion on "after the start signal" with regards to 5.2.4 and front pockets. But that's a different can of worms.]

[Loves2Shoot]

I didn't know about the distinction, know that my vote is just buy a new mag

I think a thoughtful RO would say don't use that mag and not give a direct bump to open though.

[mildot1]

I was out in left field

Edited March 19, 2011 by mildot1

[ima45dv8]

Any RO that would bump you to open for loading "one" round (and I mean the mag is now empty)from any mag and sticking it in your front pocket is a horses ass.

You gain no competitive advantage from having it there. Period!

What would you gain from re-inserting it? Nothing.

If it is of no advantage does it make a difference whether you drop it on the ground or stick it up ur butt?

Common sense should prevail.

Mildot

Dial it down.

"No antagonistic tones will be tolerated.

Please post respectfully or don't post at all."

[JakeMartens]

Common sense should prevail.

Mildot

We are talking about the rules here now....

to original poster, PM me your address I have a 7 round mag I will mail for for free to barney with.

[Gary Johnson]

Size limits aren't about how many rounds you stuff in a mag. They're about whether it fits in the gage/box. The RO/Chrono officer has no discretion.

Bringing an illegal mag to a local match can be a learning opportunity for all involved. Bringing one to a major match is a recipe for heartache. You risk putting yourself in open and putting some unlucky RO in the position of having to decide between being an a$$ for moving you to open or getting his a$$ chewed by the RM for ignoring a hard and fast rule.

Any RO that would bump you to open for loading "one" round (and I mean the mag is now empty)from any mag and sticking it in your front pocket is a horses ass.

You gain no competitive advantage from having it there. Period!

What would you gain from re-inserting it? Nothing.

If it is of no advantage does it make a difference whether you drop it on the ground or stick it up ur butt?

Common sense should prevail.

Mildot

[Loves2Shoot]

Gary, so are you saying as an official RO you can't advise a competitor who pulls an "illegal" magazine out of his back pocket, not to use it and to get rid of it before he goes further or you will have to move him/her into Open?

[mhs]

Any RO that would bump you to open for loading "one" round (and I mean the mag is now empty)from any mag and sticking it in your front pocket is a horses ass.

You gain no competitive advantage from having it there. Period!

What would you gain from re-inserting it? Nothing.

If it is of no advantage does it make a difference whether you drop it on the ground or stick it up ur butt?

Common sense should prevail.

Mildot

It is an ROs responsibility to enforce the rules as they are written. If you feel that properly performing their duty makes an RO a "horses ass" it is your prerogative, but it makes me question why you would participate in this sport.

[Joe4d]

If I see it before make ready, id give the notice after checking with score keeper to see what division you're shooting, If you loaded up after make ready which starts the COF then welcome to open, kinda blows but the rule is pretty simple, Rules are the rules they should be followed. Look at it this way, What happens if RO in bay one moves you to open, and a shooter in bay two does the exact same thing but RO "lets him slide" ? Is that fair ? The only way this game can always be fair is if all RO's follow the letter of the rule book the best they can. nothing to do with being mean or not. Be kinda dumb anyway to even worry about it, a cheap mislspec 1911 mag are a dime a dozen.

[Joe4d]

oops

Edited March 18, 2011 by Joe4d

[vluc]

Makes me think of the time I had a little itty bitty piece of grip tape under the trigger guard of my Glock at an Area match a few years ago when shooting production. If I use the definition of one poster here, common sense should have prevailed as that little bit of grip tape would not give me a competitive advantage, right?

Found at the chrono station, just a stupid error on my part in forgetting to remove it.

Ever shoot Open with 10 round magazines and a production pistol? I have, it's not pretty, but rules are rules.

Edited March 18, 2011 by vluc

[Gary Johnson]

Current rules don't allow warnings for equipment violations. The only time I have any discretion is if I see something before/after the match, or off the range. In that case I offer friendly advice and move on.

Equipment violations are one of the reasons I recommend everyone attend a level 1 seminar. Even if you have no intention of picking up a timer you do yourself and the ROs a service by avoiding small mistakes that can cause big problems.

Gary, so are you saying as an official RO you can't advise a competitor who pulls an "illegal" magazine out of his back pocket, not to use it and to get rid of it before he goes further or you will have to move him/her into Open?

[mildot1]

OK here's my reply.

Range Officer Seminar Level One

Page 10 Line 3

"is always objective"

Page 11 Line

Objectivity

line 4

Provide a level playing field for all shooters.

Now lets move to page 12

" There is no room in this sport for a range official who sees himself as a KGB enforcer, or has a grudge toward highly skilled shooters, or whose mind is set such that his very attitude shouts, "I'm out to get this shooter"

I'll give an example that was shown at the RO seminar I attended. one clip showed a shooter leaning out on one knee with his foot over the fault line. he got a procedural for every shot he fired.

The next showed a shooter going prone, they gave him one procedural.

What was the difference?

The first example gained an advantage for every shot fired because it kept him in a better shooting position.

The second gained nothing by having his foot over the line, he just happened to be taller than the average shooter that the fault line had been set up for.

Now going back to my original post.

If the shooter has a empty magazine that is illegal for his division in his front pocket(in front of the hip bone)is he gaining any advantage?

Since this post didn't state nationals or local, I'll throw this out. Are you gonna bump to open some guy that shows up at a local match to shoot SS to open cause he barney'd with a ten round mag and stuck it in his front pocket? Maybe your not the type we need to promote the sport.

Yes the big shoots are a different level like IIorIII most shooters there will have the correct equipment, most didn't start last week.

I didn't take the RO class to become a "Range Nazi", I took it to learn how to run a FAIR and SAFE match.

Mildot

[bbbean]

If its a 10 round mag and you go to chrono the chrono guy can ask to use any mag you have. If you have that mag and he wants to use it and it doesn't fit the box welcome to open. Now most local matches don't have chrono stations but I think it would be wise to find some cheap 7 round mag somewhere and just put it in your back pocket.

For that matter, a new power mag is only $25-30, so why not pick up an extra mag you can use in competition. That way, you don't have to worry about whether you accidentally loaded your 7 round mag and are going to hit slidelock when you don't need to.

[Gary Johnson]

...If the shooter has a empty magazine that is illegal for his division in his front pocket(in front of the hip bone)is he gaining any advantage?...

No, but the equipment rules don't consider advantage. Either the equipment conforms to the rules or it doesn't.

...Since this post didn't state nationals or local, I'll throw this out. Are you gonna bump to open some guy that shows up at a local match to shoot SS to open cause he barney'd with a ten round mag and stuck it in his front pocket?....

Probably not but that isn't what we are discussing. Jerry asked for advice on using a ten round magazine to barney in single stack division and the prudent answer is no because that would violate equipment rules.

...I didn't take the RO class to become a "Range Nazi", I took it to learn how to run a FAIR and SAFE match...

Then you did it for the right reasons.

[ChuckS]

Since this post didn't state nationals or local, I'll throw this out. Are you gonna bump to open some guy that shows up at a local match to shoot SS to open cause he barney'd with a ten round mag and stuck it in his front pocket? Maybe your not the type we need to promote the sport.

Mildot

A few years back, prior to the addition of "after the start signal", a very good production shooter used to barney from a 10 round Glock mag that would take 11. No one at the local matches thought much about it and it certainly did not give him any advantage. He traveled back east to an area match, pulled out that mag and loaded as usual and was bumped to open at the first stage. Not following the rules is never a good idea.

Later,

Chuck

[aztecdriver]

Make Ready, Use 10 round magazine with 1 round in it to barney up. After you remove the mag from the gun, throw it over your shoulder for good luck - problem solved. You never have it on your person after the start signal - it's not used during a COF and you can use what you have to barney. Never put it on your belt, and leave it in your bag for empty starts.

This complies, in my opinion - anyone object?