fireman275 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Are there rules and regulations (or unwritten rules) to loading for other people? I have friends that are wanting me to load for them. And what about someone at a club or similar. Can they pay you for the ammo / supplies or is there liability involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Technically, anytime you sell any reloaded ammo, you are breaking the law. You must have a type 6 FFL to make and sell ammo. But, as far as I know, there is no law against giving it away, except you would still be liable if someone wanted to sue you if your ammo blew up their gun and / or injured them. Also, I know of no law which states that you can't "barter" for it either, but that's a slippery slope.....I suggest that if someone wants reloads, that you tell them to pay for the components (brass, primer, powder, and bullet), and teach them how to reload on your machine (while watching and guiding), thus relieving you of any and all liability, and also any possibility of law breakage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David.Hylton Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 That's what I do. Teach them to load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman275 Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 I think I can do that... once I get someone to teach me how! 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raysracer Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 that's good info.... thanks. i'll have to start saving up for a reloader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Where the BATFE is involved, better to be safe than sorry. They're not widely known for being consistent or logical in their rulings.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Technically, anytime you sell any reloaded ammo, you are breaking the law. This is wrong. I will not give legal advice for reasons I won't disclose on this forum. But I will say that this is a commonly-believed myth, and it's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Technically, anytime you sell any reloaded ammo, you are breaking the law. This is wrong. I will not give legal advice for reasons I won't disclose on this forum. But I will say that this is a commonly-believed myth, and it's wrong. True; The big question is whether your buddies wife is going to sue you into bankruptcy because he had a squib then racked another one in and pulled the trigger, wasn't wearing glasses, but its still your fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonresq Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Two options: 1) File papers with your state to set up an LLC (usually around $100). Then, get a type 6 or type 7 FFL allowing you to both manufacture weapons and ammunition and sell them ($I forget how much this was). Type 7 is handy as you cna both manufacture, sell and ship weapons. This option gives you the ability to have some liability coverage should something go wrong. They can only sue the company and that company's assets. Also, there are numerous tax breaks to be had. (This is the option I myself chose). One drawback is that you have to deal with the TTB for FAET. Google that for more. 2) Reload as a service. This requires the buyer to submit the brass to be reloaded by you and you reload that exact brass as a service. This gets you around needing an FFL but doesn't free you from any liability, so you might still consider an LLC here too. Just my .02 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman275 Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 I am already incorporated. So that's one step out of the way. But I'm more wanting to do it for friends so we can save $$$ while shooting. I love my country but everybody sueing everybody else is a little tiresome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerflyer48 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) I fall into the "invite them over for some blue kool aid" camp.. I think this is part of Dillons "hidden sales force" and it solves 2 problems.. 1. their ammo made by their hands , encouraging self sufficiency and pride in workmanship , though I am unsure of liability by supplying the press but I hate the feeling you get when the call comes in " can I swing by and show you my burned Detonics ?" yep one little mistake and I had to buy a set of Pachmayrs thankfully that was all and we are still friends... BTW double check everything before the press starts.. 9 grains of almost anything in a .45ACP is badddd... 2. how to support one of my favorite companies ! I am sure someone near you reloads,.. just have to find them,... maybe post a "Want to learn in WA. " in the general reloading section... Edited March 8, 2011 by Amerflyer48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman275 Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 If we are talking about Dillon's blue kool aid, I'm a believer. The two guys can't afford to buy the stuff now (neither can I but I did anyway). I bought my 550B used with all the extras I need. But there were a couple of issues with the reloader. I called Dillon and they sent me about $20 worth of parts for free. They didn't charge me shipping either. I will recommend Dillon to anyone who wants to reload. And BE as well. I bought some stuff from him and I was impressed with the service he gives. Thank you Dillon Precision and thank you Brian Enos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Technically, anytime you sell any reloaded ammo, you are breaking the law. This is wrong. I will not give legal advice for reasons I won't disclose on this forum. But I will say that this is a commonly-believed myth, and it's wrong. Prove it. Show me the law where it says you can manufacture and sell ammo without a type 6 FFL. I suugest you do more research. To manufactur and sell ammo, you must have a type 6. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2035752#post2035752 Barter is different story...You must have a type 6 FFL to make and sell just the bullet heads.....Note I said "sell"...There is no law regarding the making of bullets or ammo, only of the selling thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) I have a friend I am helping to get into shooting. We go to the range every couple of weeks and he puts 2 boxes of factory 9mm through my M&P. I reload for myself but I wouldn't be able to live with myself if one of my loads somehow blew up and injured him. I've never had a reloading mishap of any kind but better safe than sorry. Edited March 9, 2011 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Technically, anytime you sell any reloaded ammo, you are breaking the law. This is wrong. I will not give legal advice for reasons I won't disclose on this forum. But I will say that this is a commonly-believed myth, and it's wrong. Prove it. Show me the law where it says you can manufacture and sell ammo without a type 6 FFL. I suugest you do more research. To manufactur and sell ammo, you must have a type 6. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2035752#post2035752 Barter is different story...You must have a type 6 FFL to make and sell just the bullet heads.....Note I said "sell"...There is no law regarding the making of bullets or ammo, only of the selling thereof. The burden of proof is on the government to show that something is illegal, not the other way around. You can't prove that something is LEGAL, that's like proving a negative. All conduct is presumed legal unless it violates some law. The federal government does not have the police power like the states. It cannot simply enact a criminal statute on any subject it desires. It has not enacted any statute that makes it illegal to sell ammunition. It is illegal to manufacture ammunition without a license. Manufacture does not mean "make." It seems that you are the one who needs to research. An FFL (any FFL) is a license to engage in a certain type of interstate commerce for profit and livelihood. There's a reason why I don't need an FFL to make my own ammunition, and could not get one without telling the government that I was intending to make and sell ammunition for profit and for my livelihood. Bartering does not make something not "commerce." Bartering is a form of commerce just like selling for cash. Telling someone to barter doesn't make their conduct any more or less legal than it'd be if they sold it for cash, either. Edited March 9, 2011 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonresq Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Twodown, I did your research for you. From the ATF's site: Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Two key words just like I used in my post. LIVELIHOOD and PROFIT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 If you are not doing it for profit (ie you sell it for what it cost you to load it) and your INTENT is not to make money, then you are clearly not a business in the eyes of the BATF. That is why individuals are allowed to sell personal guns without BATF oversight. The BATF is heavy on intent. You are liable the moment you leave your house in the morning, so if your buddies want to shoot your ammo and you want to load it, that is between you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonresq Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hate to be the bearer of bad news ya'll but this is bad information. The bottom line is if you are caught selling ammunition that you manufactured (yes, manufacturing is defined by the ATF as assembling parts) you are running a big risk. Do you really think the Agent will go "Oh, you're not making any money? Well, nevermind -carry on!" No. Bottom line - the law is the law. The ATF says in order to sell ammunition you must have a license. No ifs ands or buts. I can't understand why people try to interpret these laws according to their own standards and then assign factual status to that standard and then get on the internet and spread that crap around! The ATF has sat at my kitchen table and told me stories of people that thought they could get around these laws. They have actually been very upfront and helpful. The Agent that came and did my paperwork was very helpful and actually encouraged me to get into Class III. Anyway, be careful everyone. Go to the source. Get a license to sell. You probably won't get caught until one round goes bad and that acquaintance friend sues the snot out of you and his lawyer asks to see your license to manufacture and sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmanfixit Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Teach your pals to reload. Encourage them to get a press, even if it's a square deal or something simple for starters. Invite them over and let them bring their own components and use your equipment to make their own. Making ammunition can be a "mindfullness" exercise. (Look I don't want to wreck it for you by using a word like meditative, after all, "real men" don't meditate!!) As far as I know there is no aspect of this sport that finally doesn't require attention in the moment. Might as well go with it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hate to be the bearer of bad news ya'll but this is bad information. The bottom line is if you are caught selling ammunition that you manufactured (yes, manufacturing is defined by the ATF as assembling parts) you are running a big risk. Do you really think the Agent will go "Oh, you're not making any money? Well, nevermind -carry on!" No. Bottom line - the law is the law. The ATF says in order to sell ammunition you must have a license. No ifs ands or buts. I can't understand why people try to interpret these laws according to their own standards and then assign factual status to that standard and then get on the internet and spread that crap around! The ATF has sat at my kitchen table and told me stories of people that thought they could get around these laws. They have actually been very upfront and helpful. The Agent that came and did my paperwork was very helpful and actually encouraged me to get into Class III. Anyway, be careful everyone. Go to the source. Get a license to sell. You probably won't get caught until one round goes bad and that acquaintance friend sues the snot out of you and his lawyer asks to see your license to manufacture and sell. Well, I'm passing on the info that my ATF rep gave me just a few month back. He said they only have oversight if you are in business to make money selling ammo. Sounds like they are not all reading out of the same playbook. I was very specific in my question, as I have no intention on making ANY money off of selling loaded ammo, but from time to time at the range someone may need a few rounds and sometimes they insist on giving you something for them so I wanted to know what the rules are. His explanation is in line with what the regs say, so I believe him. I agree you should asking your agent if you have any questions, as there no one at the ATF has told me the same story on gunsmith and manufacturing requirements because there is so much INTENT that is nonsensical and confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Intent always matters in the criminal law. It's not like we're in the business of locking up people who are not morally culpable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerflyer48 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I still say for once in your life be "productively lazy" make them do it....here's the expensive part, try it.... if you like it I know this guy Brian who sells these things,...great guy who will treat you right... in the end if something goes wrong the lawyers won't care,...everyone gets to say "Your Honor...." whether you or your buddy loads it...you were at least a witness.. and mucking about with laws and the BATF is like going to Las Vegas,... remember the house always wins.. they have more lawyers and guns than you do. look at the long line of "defendants" that thought they were right and ATF was wrong... For me it isn't worth the hassle... come over for dinner and I will take you on a journey through the wonderful world of reloading where you can learn of the risks,rewards,dangers and joys of gunpowder,primes and pressure... see you at the range.. John P.S. when you invite them over don't tell them what I was told "first run is free,..next one will cost you..." thousands of rounds later I know what they meant.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Are there rules and regulations (or unwritten rules) to loading for other people? I have friends that are wanting me to load for them. And what about someone at a club or similar. Can they pay you for the ammo / supplies or is there liability involved? I simply do not do it. One double charge so far in my life, that damaged one of my firearms. I never want to be even partially responsible for damage, or injury, to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARKAVELI Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I wouldn't do it but that's me! I would let them use my press but make em buy the supplies in bulk and make my ammo with the supplies they bought Study the laws before you do decide yo don't wonna get yourself in a mess, be safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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