texasag93 Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 OK, I have a problem! I have a P16 Limited, metal mag catch and a new Kart barrel. Everything is tight and it feels good. I have been having problems with the bullets setting back when run through the gun. I am loading 165 gr Zero JHPs. OAL is 1.160. Everything I have read on crimp in this forum is that the dimension at the case mouth after crimp should be .420? Case demension is .420 at base of case. .418 at middle of case. .420 at mouth of case. Loading on RCBS carbide dies, Lee FCD. This amount of crimp will hold the bullet in place when they are cycled by hand through the gun. If I load it, lock the slide back and then drop the slide it will set it back about .01 each time this is done. Same if not more when the load is fired in the gun. I have been adjusting the crimp and cycling them in an attemp to find the crimp that will keep the bullet in place. I have come up with .416 outside case mouth dimension as the point that will hold the bullet. Isn't this to much "crimp"? Won't this hurt the accuracy? Accuracy is iffy now, with little time to check accuracy yet. OK, is this the new barrel or the load? What do I need to do? TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 I had the same problem the a para I had. It was mainly because it hit so low on the ramp. I started using an EGW Lee U die and STI/Para mags and no more set back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 crimp should be .418, feed lips at .380 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 You will get more neck tension if you leave the crimp as it is, get rid of the LEE FCD, and use an EGW small base sizing die instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted March 22, 2004 Author Share Posted March 22, 2004 Benny(or anyone else who knows), if my mag lips are a little narrow, .363 to .375, how is the best way to bend them out? Is that .380 uniform from front to back? One mag varies from .360 at back to .385 to front. Mag dimensions: #1 -.360 back, .358 front #2- .362 back, .388 front #3- .370 back, .363 front #4- .379 back, .387 front Guess these are all a little out of whack. There is no sag of the mag once it is inserted(or not enough to matter). TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Is your barrel freebored????You maybe hitting the rifling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Possible help areas: Turn down the expander button (tough steel, good luck) Use nickel cases (www.brassmanbrass.com) Avoid spraying lube inside the case mouth (outside is fine) Use bullets at .401 (not made by zero, maybe by montana gold?) Again, check the freebore - ink some bullets & chamber-check those rounds. Load some rounds extra-long & repeat the freebore check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Just a shot in the dark... Expander maybe a little on the large side ? -.003 -.004 under bullet dia. works for me. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted March 22, 2004 Author Share Posted March 22, 2004 Will measure expander for oversize. Barrel is not freebored. Bullets don't hit the rifling. I chamber checked the loads with the pistol disassembled. All the rounds fall in flush. I loaded the mags and the ones with minimal dimensions at the feed lips have less angle to the round. This would force it into the feed ramp harder than the ones at the proper angle. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 I use a Lee FCD and set it to a .416. My groups are consistently 1" or less at 40yds. If .420 is causing the bullet to set back, then try a tighter crimp. DO NOT throw away your FCD because it is definitely a good piece of equipment. Personally, I would even begin to "home-tune" any magazines. Pay the money and get them professionally done. I see shooter after shooter after shooter try to tune mags with the same result every time. Why spend all this money on a gun and use iffy mags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 I was having the same problem with my P14.45 I started using Rainier bullets because their softer jacket allowed for the crimped case to "bite" into it. It's probably a design problem that can be remedied with the "right" combination of new barrel, new mags, new frame, slide, firing pin, extractor, ejector, hammer, sear, and rear sight. ...that might fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted March 22, 2004 Author Share Posted March 22, 2004 I am gonna leave the crimp at .418 for now and try the mags that are narrow with the ones that are right or slightly over and see if they all have the save problem with set back. I will go from there. Thanks for the info so far guys. Will get back with results. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 feed lips need to be .380 front & rear. If you cannot get this done, send them to me. one day turnaround. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 I have all mag lips at .380 give or take .002. My crimp is at .416. I have tried OAL from 1.135 to 1.18. Chambering them from locked slide sets them back .01 about every time. The barrel puts knicks in the widest point of the shoulder of the bullet? Can't really tell where it is hitting the barrel? I don't want to put any more crimp on the bullet to stop the set back. How much smaller will the EGW die size them. Mine now sizes cases to .417 at the neck now. What next? TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 edited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 you need a good smith to re-ramp your barrel. properly set up this will not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tupperware Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 My crimp is at .416. I don't want to put any more crimp on the bullet to stop the set back. How much smaller will the EGW die size them. Mine now sizes cases to .417 at the neck now. What next? TXAG My "U" die sizes down to .414". Your crimp may be excessive at .416", I sure wouldn't go smaller. Case neck tension is the main thing that holds a bullet in place, not crimp, unless your bullet has a cannelure. Most people I've talked to crimp between .418-.420". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 If the U die sizes that much, and the expander assy. is .003 - .004 under bullet dia. You would need to smack that ramp awful hard.... Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 TXAG, I'm just a dumb southern boy with a dumber question. Do your rounds repeatedly lose .01 every time you chamber them. I mean, if you kept chambering one round repeatedly would it eventually get to be,...say... 1.06" from the original 1.16"? I guess the reason I ask is that when I put bullets in a box, I "thumb check" them to make sure they don't move or completely collapse. I have never considered checking for .01 increments of setback. I think, in my STI, that if I had thumb checked them and found them sound, that if I had a .01 setback during loading that it wouldn't make much difference in the round and I would shoot it. I mean other than a perfection issue, is there a safety issue for a .01 setback? Please don't consider my question in any way critical, I'm just trying to learn something new. thanks, dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 With the crimp at .420 I had one round set back till it was sitting on the powder charge(or real close to it.) This was a round that I cleared after a stage. That would be a safety issue. I dont think that .01 is an issue but I just like to know that everthing is right with the gun. I am a bit of a perfectionist on most things and this would be one of them. I am tinkering with it to see. I am just concerned with the pressure issue in the .40 A bullet setting back to under factory length and then being fired is going to cause a problem sooner or later. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 thanks for the reply. I can understand the perfection thing. If my gun isn't running up to my expectations, I'm an unhappy camper. I hope you find the cause of your problem. I did have one instance when I had a certain brand of brass that just would not crimp sufficiently on the bullet. It would always push back in the case. I can't remember whose it was (it was when I was loading 9mm) but when I quit using that manufactuer, I quit having problems. good luck dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 TexasAg.....In .40 I don't think the concern is unreasonable. In small volume cases, small amounts of setback can cause pressures to spike particularly if your loading with a fast powder. Like most problems there a few different approaches to try. You can put money into the gun to optimize how smoothly it feeds or you can increase neck tension in your load and minimize the effect of pressure exerted on the bullet when loading. Since working on the gun would be more expensive, I would not go that way initially. Concerning the load.......My experience is that a tighter taper crimp will NOT significantly increase neck tension. To do this, you must resize the cases down to a slightly smaller dimension. I'm in the minority here in that I use an EGW U die, don't use a LEE FCD, and go with a standard taper crimp die. Adjust it to just eliminate the case neck belling created by the powder die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I agree : More crimp will not hold the bullet any tighter, case neck tension is the answer . Sizing more will not help if the expander removes the effect of the sizing. The expander should be .003 - .004 under bullet dia. This will give sufficient grip. I do not doubt that Benny Hill can get your gun to feed ammo that has loose bullets. From what I understand he is the best. But I have had really good results from the stuff above. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted March 26, 2004 Author Share Posted March 26, 2004 I am gonna have my bell die turned down a a few thousands and see what happens. I will be running several hundred rounds through it this weekend with a "heavier crimp" for now and see what happens. Should have my bell die turned down by early next week. Gotta get everything right before Space City. Also thinking about an STI TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 TXAG, did this gun run before the barrel change? Were you loading on your loader when the gun was running? Are you making a bunch of changes without really finding out whats wrong with the gun and causing problems that will just carry over to the next gun? Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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