Reloading 9mm for USPSA / IPSC

[fireman275]

I have spent a bunch of time reading this the last few days and after this morning, I think I may be more confused than before...

I have a stock M&P9 with 5" barrel. My reloading equipment is all Dillon (550B). I am wanting to shoot USPSA/IPSC Production (minor).

I am trying to figure out where to start the whole endevor but I need to keep prices down because my wife is ready to kill me because I bought a 550B with all the fixin's for $500 plus I had to buy a 9mm conversion kit, and carbide die set. (Apparently she thinks this is just another hobby.) So now we are at $650 with the scale, tumbler, 2 quick changes. Anyway, on to my questions which are numbered and separate for ease of reading and answering.

1. Bullets - I'm looking at 124/125 or 147 grain bullets. The best prices I've seen are at natchezss.com with the Rainier Ballistics. I keep hearing about Montana Gold but they are more expensive unless I can find a cheaper price. Are the Rainier Ballistics crap? Or do they shoot well? And do they load well in a 550B (Their website recommends a Lee Factory Crimp die but I bought the Dillon)?

***Bullet questions - Weight, Brand, Shape, Place to purchase (all based on USPSA/IPSC useage, accuracy, and price).

2. Primer - I'm starting to think that this is a non issue. Buy CCI or Federal; the need for a soft contact is not a problem with a semiauto. Correct?

3. Powder - I've been told to look at Hodgdon TiteGroup, Winchester 231, and Alliant Power Pistol. Would you recommend one of these or something else? And through my reading this morning, I want a fast burning powder for less recoil feel. I can look up the burn rates of these but I would appreciate recommendations.

4. Brass - I have a bunch of Federal brass that I've shot but I want to buy more. I would like to load 500 to 1000 at a time so I need more brass. Can I load ammo with the military primer crimp on it or do I need to look elsewhere? Any thoughts on cheap brass (once fired).

I hope I've covered all the info I've been searching for. And I'm sorry if anyone is p.o.'ed because I should have searched first (I have but didn't get all the understanding I needed).

Thanks again,

Warren.

[Bouttime]

I have spent a bunch of time reading this the last few days and after this morning, I think I may be more confused than before...

I have a stock M&P9 with 5" barrel. My reloading equipment is all Dillon (550B). I am wanting to shoot USPSA/IPSC Production (minor).

I am trying to figure out where to start the whole endevor but I need to keep prices down because my wife is ready to kill me because I bought a 550B with all the fixin's for $500 plus I had to buy a 9mm conversion kit, and carbide die set. (Apparently she thinks this is just another hobby.) So now we are at $650 with the scale, tumbler, 2 quick changes. Anyway, on to my questions which are numbered and separate for ease of reading and answering.

1. Bullets - I'm looking at 124/125 or 147 grain bullets. The best prices I've seen are at natchezss.com with the Rainier Ballistics. I keep hearing about Montana Gold but they are more expensive unless I can find a cheaper price. Are the Rainier Ballistics crap? Or do they shoot well? And do they load well in a 550B (Their website recommends a Lee Factory Crimp die but I bought the Dillon)?

***Bullet questions - Weight, Brand, Shape, Place to purchase (all based on USPSA/IPSC useage, accuracy, and price).

2. Primer - I'm starting to think that this is a non issue. Buy CCI or Federal; the need for a soft contact is not a problem with a semiauto. Correct?

3. Powder - I've been told to look at Hodgdon TiteGroup, Winchester 231, and Alliant Power Pistol. Would you recommend one of these or something else? And through my reading this morning, I want a fast burning powder for less recoil feel. I can look up the burn rates of these but I would appreciate recommendations.

4. Brass - I have a bunch of Federal brass that I've shot but I want to buy more. I would like to load 500 to 1000 at a time so I need more brass. Can I load ammo with the military primer crimp on it or do I need to look elsewhere? Any thoughts on cheap brass (once fired).

I hope I've covered all the info I've been searching for. And I'm sorry if anyone is p.o.'ed because I should have searched first (I have but didn't get all the understanding I needed).

Thanks again,

Warren.

Hello Warren,

I just started shooting production with a CZ75 SP 01 Shadow. I am shooting Montana Gold 115 & 124 grain JHP. I am going to shoot the 115 grain, over 4.2 grains of TiteGroup, with Federal or Winchester primers. This gives me a 130 power factor. I have a 550B also.

The military brass you will have to swage the primer pocket before you can get another primer in. As for as more brass go to my profile and PM me or send an E-Mail and I can fix you up with once fired, cleaned & polished cheap brass.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Bouttime

[HS101]

The Montana Gold bullets are worth the (seemingly high) price. You are getting a large quantity, and shipping is included. Most other distributors do not include shipping... If you do the math, they are very competitively priced. I started off with 147gr Ranier plated, but now I use 124gr MG... I would NOT go back to plated... I like running my loads hot, witch is not a good combo with plated bullets. The 147/124/115gr choice is up to you. Starting out, I think the recoil impulse of the 147s helped me get back to target quicker (more of a push).

For powder, I have been very happy with Unique... Cheap, readily available, can use it in 9, 40 and 45....

Brass - If I am not picking up range brass, I have had good luck with Scharch brass.

[The_Vigilante]

Why are you buying the conversion kit-you are supposed to get 1 conversion with the 550 press. If $$$ is a factor then go with the moly bullets until you can afford the Montana Gold or Zero's. Several companies sell the moly's: Precison and Black Bullets are favorites here at the BE forum. David at Precision gives excellent and fast service with reasonable prices. I buy the 147g 9mm bullets and use VV N320 to power them. Fast powders which will do what you want include Titegroup, Bullseye, Solo 1000, and VV N320. WST is another favorite. As far as brass is concerned it comes up for sale often here on the forum. Just keep your eyes open and your mouse ready because they go pretty fast. Other sources for brass include Gunbroker.

Edited February 27, 2011 by The_Vigilante

[fireman275]

Why are you buying the conversion kit-you are supposed to get 1 conversion with the 550 press. If $$$ is a factor then go with the moly bullets until you can afford the Montana Gold or Zero's. Several companies sell the moly's: Precison and Black Bullets are favorites here at the BE forum. David at Precision gives excellent and fast service with reasonable prices. I buy the 147g 9mm bullets and use VV N320 to power them. Fast powders which will do what you want include Titegroup, Bullseye, Solo 1000, and VV N320. WST is another favorite. As far as brass is concerned it comes up for sale often here on the forum. Just keep your eyes open and your mouse ready because they go pretty fast. Other sources for brass include Gunbroker.

I purchased the 550 with 2 complete setups (44 Mag and 45 ACP). I don't use either but it was part of the package so I have them. I would like to trade them with someone that is wanting to get rid of their 40 S&W or .223 but that's for a later date. I don't have enough posts to put the carbide dies and conversion kits in the classifieds yet.

[GrumpyOne]

I have spent a bunch of time reading this the last few days and after this morning, I think I may be more confused than before...

I have a stock M&P9 with 5" barrel. My reloading equipment is all Dillon (550B). I am wanting to shoot USPSA/IPSC Production (minor).

I am trying to figure out where to start the whole endevor but I need to keep prices down because my wife is ready to kill me because I bought a 550B with all the fixin's for $500 plus I had to buy a 9mm conversion kit, and carbide die set. (Apparently she thinks this is just another hobby.) So now we are at $650 with the scale, tumbler, 2 quick changes. Anyway, on to my questions which are numbered and separate for ease of reading and answering.

1. Bullets - I'm looking at 124/125 or 147 grain bullets. The best prices I've seen are at natchezss.com with the Rainier Ballistics. I keep hearing about Montana Gold but they are more expensive unless I can find a cheaper price. Are the Rainier Ballistics crap? Or do they shoot well? And do they load well in a 550B (Their website recommends a Lee Factory Crimp die but I bought the Dillon)?

***Bullet questions - Weight, Brand, Shape, Place to purchase (all based on USPSA/IPSC useage, accuracy, and price). Go with Montana Gold 147 JHP's, from Montana Gold themselves. Buy in bulk (by the case, it's cheaper).

2. Primer - I'm starting to think that this is a non issue. Buy CCI or Federal; the need for a soft contact is not a problem with a semiauto. Correct? Go with Winchester Small Pistol primers

3. Powder - I've been told to look at Hodgdon TiteGroup, Winchester 231, and Alliant Power Pistol. Would you recommend one of these or something else? And through my reading this morning, I want a fast burning powder for less recoil feel. I can look up the burn rates of these but I would appreciate recommendations. All that you mentioned will work fine.

4. Brass - I have a bunch of Federal brass that I've shot but I want to buy more. I would like to load 500 to 1000 at a time so I need more brass. Can I load ammo with the military primer crimp on it or do I need to look elsewhere? Any thoughts on cheap brass (once fired). Watch out for military brass, you'll have to swage them. Also watch out for Federal NT brass, as they are crimped as well. S&B brass is also not worth much, as alot of it is steel, but brass washed, so it looks like brass...Use a magnet on it to make sure it's brass and not steel.

I hope I've covered all the info I've been searching for. And I'm sorry if anyone is p.o.'ed because I should have searched first (I have but didn't get all the understanding I needed).

Thanks again,

Warren.

[Paul-the new guy]

+1 for Moly bullets. I am having good luck with Black Bullets International 130 grn over WST powder. MG 124 grn $309.00 for 3750. $.085 each. BBI 130 grn $180.00 for 3000. $.06 each. I love MG bullets but right now I can't afford to shoot them.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I am trying to figure out where to start the whole endevor but I need to keep prices down because my wife is ready to kill me because I bought a 550B with all the fixin's for $500 plus I had to buy a 9mm conversion kit, and carbide die set. I hope I've covered all the info I've been searching for. Thanks again,

Warren.

Don't forget to get calipers so you know how long your cartridges are;

and borrow or buy a chrono so you know how fast they're going. And a

scale so you know how much powder you're throwing.

You might find some guys at the local club who can share ideas - and

supplies - try out the different types of bullets and powders.

Good luck - sounds like a great start.

[fireman275]

Don't forget to get calipers so you know how long your cartridges are;

and borrow or buy a chrono so you know how fast they're going. And a

scale so you know how much powder you're throwing.

You might find some guys at the local club who can share ideas - and

supplies - try out the different types of bullets and powders.

Good luck - sounds like a great start.

Hi-Power Jack,

Thanks for the tip. I was looking at calipers yesterday. I don't know how accurate I NEED to go but I saw some with an accuracy of .001" or. .02mm. I'm hoping that should do it. The scale came with the package too. I really don't think I got a bad deal (maybe a good one) but my wife isn't happy about the $$$ going out either way.

[The_Vigilante]

Just explain to your wife that reloading is going to save you $$$$ vs if you had to buy all of your ammunition. It may or may not fly!!

[fireman275]

I've been working that angle but it isn't working yet. I think $11 for a box of 50 here and there looked better to her. But I don't like it as much - and that's what counts right?!?

[z40acp]

I have a S&W M&P pro9 also. I have used WSP and CCI SP without any problems. If you have enough brass to get started you might want to hold off buying more. Around here a lot of people just leave it on the range. If you belong to a club, you could pick up range brass. You will be surprised how fast it adds up. I use MG 124 CMJ indoors and lead outdoors. On a budget, lead can be more economical. Look at the local gun shows for lead bullets and save shipping. I use WSField with the MGs. I do like the WST with most lead loads, but only used WST in 9 with the heavy {147} bullets. The local guys shooting USPSA might be able to point you in the right direction on local good price componets. I always try to get in with the shotgunners at the club buying powder. A lot of shotgun powder is good pistol powder. Good luck.

[8ring]

Rainer Bullets - Plated bullets like Rainer, Berry's, etc. can shoot satisfactorily in 9mm but there is little need to use them. For the same or lower price, Zero full metal jacketed are more accurate and are easier to work with.

I recommend you start by using FMJ (or TMJ) bullets. Most load data is published for FMJ bullets. Hollow point and truncated cone bullets are by their nature shorter than TMJs. Their profile may cause problems determining the correct OAL for feeding and pressure concerns.

A factory crimp die should not be necessary unless your M & P has feeding problems that can't otherwise be fixed. I use Dillon 9mm dies and they work fine.

Titegroup is widely used in 124gr and 147gr 9mm target loads with full metal jacket and total metal jacket bullets. Just keep in mind that it is very dense and fills only part of the case. There is a risk of double charging revolver cases with Titegroup but that shouldn't be a problem with 9mm so long as you are careful.

Lead and moly coasted bullets have caused some barrel leading and a very dirty gun in my CZ 85. I think the reasons include the high pressure of the round which may exceed the strength of the standard 92% lead, 6% antimony, 2% tin alloy and the fast barrel twist (1-9") needed to stabilize 147gr bullets. (I wish they worked better because a 147gr moly coated bullet over 3.2gr N-320 has a very mild recoil and easily makes 130+ power factor.) Your gun may be different so try a box of lead projectiles.

However, I do not recommend Titegroup with lead or moly coated bullets. Its high nitroglycerine content makes it burn very hot and create more smoke than single base powders such as Solo 1000 or N-320.

Pay special attention to the OAL (overall length) of the finished cartridge. 9mm is a high pressure round and pressures can increase dramatically when the OAL is shortened. My rule is to make the round as long as possible that gives reliable feeding and does not contact the lands of the barrel. To find this point, you need to take your barrel out of the gun and use it as a case gauge. Make a dummy round at the maximum length, put a mild taper crimp on it and drop it into the chamber. Shorten the OAL until it drops completely into the chamber, then shorten it by no more than.005" to make sure it isn't resting against the lands.

Then lock the slide back, put the dummy round in a magazine, and release the slide to see if it feeds smoothly. Keep your eye above the slide and watch it go into the chamber. Does it feed with a click (good), clunk-click, or clumk-clunk? If you are industrious, fill the mag with dummy rounds and see how the OAL and crimp feeds as the top round of a full mag. Some mags feed differently when fully loaded.

Make 30 or 40 at this OAL and crimp and head to the range. Shoot for accuracy and reliable feeding.

If everything works right (which it probably will), you are good to go.

For much more information on this topic, go to the following link on the CZ forum. http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?board=33.0

Welcome to the world of Production shooting.

[Ray_Z]

Everybody has their pet load. Mine is 3.7gr solo 1000 behind a 124gr MG. Very consistend, very clean, very accurate.

[fireman275]

OK. I've spent all day looking at books, reading your posts, and checking websites. At this point, I have to say "HOLY CRAP"! Some of the websites out there are very detailed in their powder recipes but some are pretty lame. The best that I've looked at is Hodgdon and worst would be Alliant. But, either way, nobody includes the exact bullet as another company. Weights should be the same but I'm guessing that the outer layers are slightly different and lengths are probably different also. So, is it safe to say that if I see a FMJ from one company, I can take that info and apply it to a Montana Gold CMJ?

For the sake of arguement, I've been looking at powders that have been recommended on this site (Bullseye, Solo 1000, Titegroup, N320, WST, 231, and Power Pistol). I am noticing a real price difference between brands AND how many grains are required for starting loads. For example, N320 is almost double the price of other brands. And for starting loads (although none use the same bullets), they range from 3.4 grains to 6.4 grains. It looks to me that Titegroup is the best bang for the buck. Sorry, I couldn't help it!

Now to loading, if I go with Titegroup, Montana Gold 124 gr CMJ, and Winchester primers, I am unsure where I should go for OAL. Do I follow the 1.090" (COL) for Sierra FMJ? I think that shape would make a difference in the cycling/loading as I shoot. What's the difference? I know not to push the bullet too deep due to pressures and poor loading but would making them the same length as factory ammo work? What's the difference between OAL and COL?

I'm really enjoying trying to figure all this out. I hope I'm not pissing you guys off while I ask these noobie questions. I'm the first guy here to get into shooting so I don't have guys around to give me direction.

Thanks for all your help. The suggestion for MG in bulk brought the price down to be better than the Ranier Ballistics. I just have to buy a bunch more.

[Kyle O]

Spend the first month reading before you spend a penny, this will save you some $$$.

Also, if your going for specifically USPSA loads, MOST of us w/9mm prefer a 147gr, traveling >850 fps this is the floor for minor power factor, but alot of us also shoot 125gr going >1000fps. Heavier going slower is more of a pushy feel, and lighter going faster, is more poppy. But, you have to make power factor.

Oh, and don't load 500, or 1000 of anything yet!!! If you get something wrong, you'll have 499 bad rounds! Load in small batches at first. Federal primers are softer, CCI are harder, if your running lightened springs in the fire control mech, and having light strikes, then you don't want to be finding that out at a match.

Buy some test bullets in like a 100 pack, and figure out what is right for you, go to a match, and talk to someone who reloads, and see if they'll let you try out whatever they are shooting, might feel a ton better than yours, and change your mind. But, you'll feel like a dunce if you do this, and you've got 3,500 of what you thought was better at home! It's a learning curve involved in relaoding, don't get distracted, and it is a very rewarding hobby.

Ask anything you need here, 3 people will tell you to search, and it is a good idea, but someone will answer you anyway. This forum is a great resource.

Oh, and I'll be trying Black Bullets next, and I've shot a load of Montana Golds, and I started with Rainier waaay back years ago.

Take care,

load safe,

shoot safe!

[Hi-Power Jack]

Don't forget to get calipers so you know how long your cartridges are;

Hi-Power Jack,

Thanks for the tip. I was looking at calipers yesterday. I don't know how accurate I NEED to go but I saw some with an accuracy of .001" or. .02mm. I'm hoping that should do it.

Accuracy of .001" is all you need. You'll need to determine your preferred OAL

for your gun/mags. If you're reloading copper bullets, the OAL doesn't change

too much after you've set it; BUT if you load lead bullets, my experience has

been that the lube on the lead will decrease your OAL as it deposits inside your

seating die - have to check the OAL, and/or clean your seating die once in a while.

[G-ManBart]

Thanks for all your help. The suggestion for MG in bulk brought the price down to be better than the Ranier Ballistics. I just have to buy a bunch more.

I use mostly MG, but Precision Delta bullets are a bit less expensive, while still being a true jacketed bullet, and working quite well for most folks. R,

[njl]

Natchez and best prices for bullets are unlikely to come out in the same sane sentence. You can do a whole lot better. i.e. Precision Delta, Montana Gold (both direct from their web sites), Extreme from TJ Conevera, Zero from Shooters Connection.

As for powder, it all depends on your priorities, bullet weights, and how important cleanliness and low smoke are to you. I've done 9mm 124-147gr with Universal Clays and WST. I don't recommend Universal for lead or moly, but it's ok for jacketed/plated. WST works well, but there's very little published 9mm data for it. If you're new to reloading, you should probably avoid really fast low volume powders. Universal and WST have enough volume that in 9mm, you either can't fit a double charge or it'd be so obvious, you'd have to be reloading blindfolded to not notice it.

[98sr20ve]

If your just starting out and don't shoot inside I am going to recommend Power Pistol. Your new. I would prefer you not use a fast powder. PP is cheap, fluffy, and makes a factory type round very well. Later get some titegroup and see what that is like.

I would start with a 124gr bullet as well. I know gamers are into heavy 9mm but 124 are great in 9mm. Plated is OK but not as good for a newbie. Precison Delta is a nice FMJ as well.

Primers, anything but wolf and remmington. Try Wolf later if you like.

Brass. Most is fine. WIN and Fed are easy.

The powder recommendation is safe, works very well in the 550 (unlike Unique which varies in charges if you bump the measure).

Edited March 1, 2011 by 98sr20ve

[Pro-Pain]

As was said about crimped brass, if you don't have a 1050 it can be a long, slow road. If the primer doesn't take the crimp with it, or enough, you won't be able to seat the primers all the time, or get them halfway in and cause problems.

For once-fired brass, www.brassmanbrass.com is my current favorite. Also, check out forums on here or local forums. There's always a few ppl who police their brass but don't reload, and you can usually get good deals. www.brassworldeshop.com is another site I look at to compare prices, sometimes deals pop up both places. www.starlinebrass.com is new brass, it's more expensive but if that's your thing, go for it.

Bullets were covered, Montana Golds, or Zero's (if you can find them!). Zero's are popular, but are hard to come by.

As far as bullet style, the cheapest is lead compound, usually 90% something lead, with other metals added. It's smoky, it's gummy, and it's hit or miss with polygonal barrels (Glocks, CZ's, H&K's, Desert Eagle/Kahr (I think)). Next would be the moly coated bullets, which are basically lead bullets in a condom. They're not AS smoky, but they're still lead bullets. Also, some places are pretty closely priced with the regular jacketed bullets.

I personally use hollow points. These have a covered base, and IMHO, it seems companies take a little bit of extra time in making sure these bullets are made better. However, a basic FMJ style will work as well.

As far as primers/powder, that's your call. Try a bit of each, see if people you shoot with will sell you 50-100 bullets of theirs, get their load data, and see what feels best for you.

[fireman275]

Well guys, thanks for the help. I've decided to go with MG 124 CMJ. I placed an order with MannyUSA. I was very impressed with him. I haven't received the bullets yet but at this point, I would recommend him to anybody.

[bisonresq]

Hey +1 on not loading a ton at a certain recipe or OAL when you're first starting. Suggestion: Use several variations and put each of them in little plastic baggies with the specs of that load written on the baggies themselves. Then go to the range and shoot em through a Chrono and write down your results on the baggies themselves. Foolproof technique to not get your data mixed up. Then at the end of the day - pick which one you like the best or which one screwed up the least. Just a suggestion. :-)

[njl]

Also, you can line up a target beyond the chrony and test for accuracy and velocity at the same time. I like to do that anyway, as it gives me a good point to aim at and hopefully avoid hitting the chrony.

As for ordering from Manny, did he give you a hard time at all for ordering just one case (assuming that's what you did) and still beat MG's direct pricing?

[fireman275]

As for ordering from Manny, did he give you a hard time at all for ordering just one case (assuming that's what you did) and still beat MG's direct pricing?

He didn't give me any trouble. He said the prices had just gone up and were $10 over the internet price but it was still a good deal. He also said the bullets would show up today (Friday - one day after I ordered them) and he would send them out to me today. I was very impressed!