Do you understand the course of fire

[Flatland Shooter]

The Range Is Safe! = The Range is clear

I am guilty of all , but I am trying to learn

Jamie,

Like Troy told us at the RO school, the range is never Safe. Old habits die hard.

Bill

[aztecdriver]

I'm assuming the "them" you're speaking of is new shooters. I'm really not just focusing on new shooters but any shooter. It sounds like you do a great job with your shooters and really care but I think you could avoid having to keep track of the next shooter, evaluating their skill level to determine if they need the talk or not, etc. by making a simple change. Not saying we have a horrible situation now with the current commands, just that I personally would like to see them tweaked.

If, then, you are focusing on all shooters, please include those that don't understand English. Foreign speakers will then have to catch two words in a jumble they just don't understand instead of just hearing those two words. Dude, I hear you. If you aren't paying attention when I'm about to give the command - I make eye contract give the "let's go" with body language.

I know what you are saying - my limited experience leads me to believe the more words the more problems there are. If you can convince me of more of a benefit to not just using "make ready" other than being nicer, or getting someones attention again - what's wrong with "huh, did you say make ready?" "yes, make ready", I'll support it, but right now it sounds like a change backwards.

I'm just not seeing the win and will agree to disagree.

[bbbean]

If you can convince me of more of a benefit to not just using "make ready" other than being nicer, or getting someones attention again - what's wrong with "huh, did you say make ready?" "yes, make ready", I'll support it, but right now it sounds like a change backwards.

1) Simple is good.

2) Consistent is good.

3) USPSA rules are very specific.

4) Following USPSA rules (at least at USPSA matches) accomplish 1 and 2.

5) Did I mention simple and consistent and compliant with the rules as established by USPSA?

[MarkCO]

If you can convince me of more of a benefit to not just using "make ready" other than being nicer, or getting someones attention again - what's wrong with "huh, did you say make ready?" "yes, make ready", I'll support it, but right now it sounds like a change backwards.

1) Simple is good.

2) Consistent is good.

3) USPSA rules are very specific.

4) Following USPSA rules (at least at USPSA matches) accomplish 1 and 2.

5) Did I mention simple and consistent and compliant with the rules as established by USPSA?

Agreed. I am amazed this has gone on this long. The action shooting sports have rules and scores, it is a game and to not abide by either makes it something less.

If you don't like the rules, you have three choices:

1. Don't RO

2. Don't shoot

3. Petition your AD to get them changed.

But altering the rules to your preference is essentially breaking the rules and should not be allowed!

I think I might have to petiton my AD to allow a procedural to be issued to ROs who refuse to use the proper range commands.

[Skydiver]

Or try the opposite view. Imagine going to another country for an IPSC match. As you stand at the start position, the RO addresses you and says the equivalent of "Do you understand the course of fire?" in the native language.

For me it can be a bit disconcerting, and the last thing I need before I go shoot a stage. (Makes me want to wipe my face with a towel, err... I mean a sighting aid. )

[in various restaurants and businesses, I've been mistaken for being Mexican, Chinese, or Hawaiian, and they would automatically start talking to me in their native tongue. All I can do as give them an apologetic and confused look and say "I don't understand."]

[sfchorn]

Here's one of the reasons I stick with the commands verbatim: If you can’t even get the range commands right, they’ll start wondering what ELSE you can’t get right.

[hankfan79]

I assume you are talking about a USPSA match

Actually no. After further reading of this thread...wow.

Disregard all my post in this matter.

What if the shooter doesn't hear you? Happens alot to those that their hearing is not so great.

Ah---not USPSA, that makes a difference. Say whatever you please...

If the shooter doesn't hear me, I say it again louder. And louder. If they continue to not hear me, they eventually look around at me wondering why I haven't said "make ready" yet, and we have a talk about what I need to do to make sure they receive the commands necessary.

Ok.

Edited March 14, 2011 by hankfan79

[sperman]

I assume you are still talking about a non-USPSA match.

The USPSA command is "Are you ready" and does not require a response.

[aztecdriver]

[in various restaurants and businesses, I've been mistaken for being Mexican, Chinese, or Hawaiian, and they would automatically start talking to me in their native tongue. All I can do as give them an apologetic and confused look and say "I don't understand."]

Off topic - but had to be said - In the new Karate Kid, when he leans over in the plane and tries to say something in Chinese to the "chinese looking" like guy across the isle and he turns and says to him. "Dude, I'm from Detroit." I love it!

[Jim Norman]

After building a match in the morning or handling match day registration, running from stage to stage to answer questions as RM, I and a few others will often get to a stage having not been there to do the walk-through, not hearing the WSB read and I can tell you I appreciate being asked although usually my question is to do with start position. The actual run through the stage is what it is.

So, I'll verify the correct shooter, say Hi, and ask, any questions? then MR, AYR, S, Beep. At the end, it is IF, ULSC, IF, HD, H, and finally one his had is off the gun, Range is clear. During the COF I will rarely warn as it can be distracting. Yelling muzzle to an experienced shooter that is at the 179 CAN maybe distract him enough to break 180. If he was close, I may comment after. If he breaks then I holler STOP.

Hey most of us, specially at a local match are hanging with our friends, there is goodhearted ribbing, trash talking and all the rest. Take too much of that away and you can precipitate a decline in attendance at your matches.

Jim

[chbrow10]

I'd like to bump this to the top since something happened that pertains to this. I'm copy/pasting this from another state forum. A competitor got DQ'd yesterday because the RO said "Do you understand the course of fire?" and the competitor thought he said "Make Ready" The competitor then pulled his gun out the holster and the RO DQ'd him.

I'm posting this for both ROs and competitors. There are very specific range commands that must be used and they cannot be altered. They are listed in section 8.3 of the rulebook, available here (http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf). Those range commands do NOT include the question "Do you understand the course of fire?"

Competitors: Be sure that you hear the phrase "Make Ready" before you unholster your gun or you will be done shooting for the day. If you think the RO said that, but are not sure, ASK.

ROs: Stick to the range commands in the book. That is what the competitors are expecting from you. I understand that y'all have been doing this a while and some habits are hard to break. Rule 8.3.6.1 provides the only provision for non standard commands, such as "reload as nessesary and holster" during standard exercises.

If y'all know me, I make sure to speak very loudly and clearly, and I say little else to the competitor during the COF.

FWIW, other things I have heard ROs say that are not listed in section 8.3 include;

"Slide forward"

"Range is safe"

"Cylinder closed" after 'If you are finished, unload and show clear" with a revo shooter.

It doesn't matter if you are Ro-ing a revo shooter, you still need to say "If clear, hammer down".

Be safe,

Chris

[EkuJustice]

If the COF begins at Make ready is any comment before that really a range command? I have heard Range going hot as the shooter is walking up on a few occasions. Is that being used as a range command or a note of your were down range and not seen you might wanna speak up?

[ima45dv8]

If the COF begins at Make ready is any comment before that really a range command?

No.

I have heard Range going hot as the shooter is walking up on a few occasions. Is that being used as a range command or a note of your were down range and not seen you might wanna speak up?

Anything said before MR is not a range command. If an RO says something...anything...before Make Ready, that does not bless the shooter to pull thier gun.

Many people are fond of saying "The shooter owns their muzzle" when 180 discussions come up, and that's true. Along with it's direction, they also own when it sees the light of day.

[Poppa Bear]

We will issue the command "GOING HOT" at the beginning of a COF or if there has been a long pause due to some sort of a REF or Shooter equipment failure. This is done many times before the shooter gets to the starting area just to warn everyone that we are getting ready to start again and you had better have your eyes and ears on. Others will call "EYES and EARS" instead. This is generally called out while facing the gallery, and in some instances while looking at a specific person who has their muffs off.

[mactiger]

We will issue the command "GOING HOT" at the beginning of a COF or if there has been a long pause due to some sort of a REF or Shooter equipment failure. This is done many times before the shooter gets to the starting area just to warn everyone that we are getting ready to start again and you had better have your eyes and ears on. Others will call "EYES and EARS" instead. This is generally called out while facing the gallery, and in some instances while looking at a specific person who has their muffs off.

"Going Hot" is not a command. Neither is "Eyes and Ears", or anything else said before "Make Ready". While they aren't against the rules, all RO's should be aware that if something other than Make Ready is said, it can be (and often is) misconstrued by the competitor as a valid command to draw their gun. The best thing is to say "Make Ready".

Troy

[sperman]

Troy,

Didn't you tell us in our RO class that "If Clear, Cylinder Closed. Holster" is an appropriate command for revolver shooters? Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.

Edited April 19, 2011 by sperman

[spanky]

Here's one of the reasons I stick with the commands verbatim: If you can’t even get the range commands right, they’ll start wondering what ELSE you can’t get right.

I couldn't agree more. The commands are much more basic than most of the other rules.

[Graham Smith]

Hey most of us, specially at a local match are hanging with our friends, there is goodhearted ribbing, trash talking and all the rest. Take too much of that away and you can precipitate a decline in attendance at your matches.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well.

[MarkCO]

"Going Hot" is not a command. Neither is "Eyes and Ears", or anything else said before "Make Ready". While they aren't against the rules, all RO's should be aware that if something other than Make Ready is said, it can be (and often is) misconstrued by the competitor as a valid command to draw their gun. The best thing is to say "Make Ready".

Troy

While that is true, a little common sense helps. If I am running the first competitor, before I let him/her step forward, I will say "range is going hot, eyes and ears." To me that is just common courtesy and it definately is a safety issue. Once a competitor is at the starting position, IF I must say something besides the official range commands, I say "STOP" first. For instance, if a popper falls, or I see an untaped target. To issue "Make Ready" only to issue "STOP" makes no sense to me. The range commands cover almost all of the circumstances, but not this one.

8.3.5 says "STOP" may be issued "at any time during the course of fire." So technically, "STOP" can not be issued prior to "Make Ready". I think this should be changed to allow it at any time. Guess I will have to change until this gets fixed. Note off to AD and Troy.

[Dan Hefta]

Troy,

Didn't you tell us in our RO class that "If Clear, Cylinder Closed. Holster" is an appropriate command for revolver shooters? Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.

If Clear? Hammer down , holster applies to all handguns.

[centermass]

Yeah, when they forget the hand position and it becomes obvious they have (we've probably all seen/done it enough to know it by sight), I'll say something like, "Wrists above shoulders". I can't start them until they get all lined out anyway, so...

How long is too long to wait? At what point do you finally state "Are you ready?" and move along with the stage? Can't the RO just assess a procedural for not adhering to the WSB once the shooter has finished?

[spanky]

Yeah, when they forget the hand position and it becomes obvious they have (we've probably all seen/done it enough to know it by sight), I'll say something like, "Wrists above shoulders". I can't start them until they get all lined out anyway, so...

How long is too long to wait? At what point do you finally state "Are you ready?" and move along with the stage? Can't the RO just assess a procedural for not adhering to the WSB once the shooter has finished?

Starting in the wrong position is a mandatory reshoot.

Edited April 19, 2011 by spanky

[bbbean]

How long is too long to wait? At what point do you finally state "Are you ready?" and move along with the stage? Can't the RO just assess a procedural for not adhering to the WSB once the shooter has finished?

One of your jobs as an RO is to insure proper starting position.

[AlamoShooter]

this entire long thread was starters with 'Do you understand the course of fire' old school /out dated some matches would give a re-shoot if the RO did not ask and the shooter had procedurals.

New is =Up Dated Don't add to or try to fix something that is not broken (Make Ready) works , its not broken.

At a club level with a few new shooters I will make a squad announcement early that the shooter is supposed to come to the start area with questions resolved and all the required gear.

As in don't step in to the start position for the "Make Ready" if you have questions.

I have been around a wile so I can get away with announcements at other clubs, If you feel out of place than possibly start with "I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express" so all questions of value should be brought up before the ready area.

[ima45dv8]

this entire long thread was starters with 'Do you understand the course of fire' old school /out dated some matches would give a re-shoot if the RO did not ask and the shooter had procedurals.

New is =Up Dated Don't add to or try to fix something that is not broken (Make Ready) works , its not broken.

At a club level with a few new shooters I will make a squad announcement early that the shooter is supposed to come to the start area with questions resolved and all the required gear.

As in don't step in to the start position for the "Make Ready" if you have questions.

I have been around a wile so I can get away with announcements at other clubs, If you feel out of place than possibly start with "I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express" so all questions of value should be brought up before the ready area.

So if you've already made your announcement, and I ask you a question after coming to the starting position, what are you going to do?