Nik Habicht Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I usually shoot production. How would a RO know that the lower is different? The serial numbers would be different, but if I got a replacement frame the serial numbers would be different. Replacement frame serial numbers, like replacement slide numbers, may follow a different numbering pattern than normal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I don't know how people who are saying that it's legal in Production are getting around D4 21.3. What am I missing? Probably because if I hand you a frame from a 17, 34, and 35 you would not be able to identify which goes to which slide. How would that rule be enforceable? *not arguing the rule or advocating the breaking of it, just answering your question* Strick, under the current production rules it's up to the competitor to prove that his equipment is legal, by referring to a rule or a section of Appendix D4. It's not up to the RO.... So it could be as simple as a Chrono RO asking why the serial numbers don't match..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I have no idea why this discussion is still going on! http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123606&view=findpost&p=1397142 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I have no idea why this discussion is still going on! http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=123606&view=findpost&p=1397142 Because other questions were raised in the thread? They sometimes veer off into related or unrelated directions, after the original question's been answered..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Sucks for anyone who buys a used Glock with a factory replaced frame. Frankly, I think the ruling defies common sense. We should add a simple "competitive advantage" clause to avoid this; on nitpicky stuff like this, if it clearly does not afford a competitive advantage, it should not be prohibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I have an old gen 2 police refurb G17. The serial numbers don't match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I have an old gen 2 police refurb G17. The serial numbers don't match. Suuuurrrre... Just wait 'til the next time you try to shoot with Production with it. Never mind. I forgot you swore off shooting Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDM Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 You can't go by serial number without some reference from Glock stating what model a particular frame belonged to. Say I have a 17 with a magwell that I use for IDPA ESP, with super duper dawson sevigny sights. Could I switch that slide to the frame of my carry 17? The serial number wouldn't match but a 17 slide on a 17 frame is ok right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I really don't see an RO even looking, or asking about he serial number. The only way I could see one asking is if the gun is a combo glock never made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 You can't go by serial number without some reference from Glock stating what model a particular frame belonged to. Say I have a 17 with a magwell that I use for IDPA ESP, with super duper dawson sevigny sights. Could I switch that slide to the frame of my carry 17? The serial number wouldn't match but a 17 slide on a 17 frame is ok right? Yes, no problem, because Glock has made that combination (Glock 17 slide on a Glock 17 frame...I know duh). The frame is the gun and you can't change barrel length etc. so 17 slide is fine, 34 slide, no go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhop Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 ok how about an shadow upper on an sp-01? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) I would bet there are several guns other being pieced together. Just look at the people parting them out in the classified. If someone buys a pieced together gun they have no clue what it started as. The dealer logs it in based on whatever upper is on it. Nothing is ever said about it. Edited February 24, 2011 by EkuJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mra8541 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 At a local level 1, I don't think anyone would ever question it. Moving up to level 2 and 3 you shouldn't be doing it (in production at least). Even though they might not know but its an honest sport and it shooters responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 You can't go by serial number without some reference from Glock stating what model a particular frame belonged to. Say I have a 17 with a magwell that I use for IDPA ESP, with super duper dawson sevigny sights. Could I switch that slide to the frame of my carry 17? The serial number wouldn't match but a 17 slide on a 17 frame is ok right? Yes, no problem, because Glock has made that combination (Glock 17 slide on a Glock 17 frame...I know duh). The frame is the gun and you can't change barrel length etc. so 17 slide is fine, 34 slide, no go. This is where the enforceability question comes into play. As we've established, serial numbers can be different. I can't - as an RO - use that to make a definitive ruling that the frame is a 17/34/22 or whatever. Granted if a someone wants to shoot a 34 on a 19 frame - yeah -- we know that one doesn't match. How does this then get determined? Do I start the process of bumping everyone I check because their SN is different - after all, it's on them to be able to prove its a 34 frame? You expect them to carry an invoice around from Glock of the swap out? I don't know. I know why the rule is there - it's just the feasibility of being able to enforce - in the Glock line at least - is hard to get my head around it. It's like jury nullification - we know the sob is guilty of the crime - we just don't believe it to be a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 This is why people shouldn't buy USPSA life memberships - because without a life membership you can always vote against this stuff with your wallet and simply send Sedro an email telling them why you're not renewing your membership. It's rules like these that make me want to take up racquetball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 This is why people shouldn't buy USPSA life memberships - because without a life membership you can always vote against this stuff with your wallet and simply send Sedro an email telling them why you're not renewing your membership. It's rules like these that make me want to take up racquetball. I'll disagree with that - my vote goes through my Area Directorship - and my solution when it's not heard is to elect someone else. The effect of me not renewing will be lost because the board is the one in control of the rulebook. I'd rather work to make USPSA better than run away. All disciplines will have some rule we don't agree with. And no, let's not dig into the proposed inequities of Area representation. That's been done and other threads are available to deal with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 This is why people shouldn't buy USPSA life memberships - because without a life membership you can always vote against this stuff with your wallet and simply send Sedro an email telling them why you're not renewing your membership. It's rules like these that make me want to take up racquetball. Let us know how that works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glocklover Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Glock is sending me a replacement frame. They said the serial numbers will not match. I plan on carrying the invoice to prove this is a replacement from Glock. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Sucks for anyone who buys a used Glock with a factory replaced frame. Frankly, I think the ruling defies common sense. We should add a simple "competitive advantage" clause to avoid this; on nitpicky stuff like this, if it clearly does not afford a competitive advantage, it should not be prohibited. And who is the arbiter of comptetive equity? This is a really simple thing. If it's Production, leave it as Production. If you want to shoot Frankengun, there are a whole bunch of other divisions for that. There are countless things you can do a tweak guns and gain an nth here and there. Production is not the divison to do it in. If I say you should be able to use whatever frame with whatever slide, as long as you don't gain a competetive advantage. Putting a 34 slide on a 17 frame does give you a competetive advantage, over the 17. That's why someone would do it. You have to draw the line somewhere and this is where it's drawn. To the shooter that said he'd just not renew and tell Sedro why. Good luck with that. I've never heard of a member quitting and telling Sedro it was because of a rule. Maybe nobody has since I've been AD. Or more likely that message about one annoyed member just doesn't make it to the BOD. If you want something to change, tell your SC, tell your AD. If you quit, well you're not a member any more so why would I care about your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 You can't go by serial number without some reference from Glock stating what model a particular frame belonged to. Say I have a 17 with a magwell that I use for IDPA ESP, with super duper dawson sevigny sights. Could I switch that slide to the frame of my carry 17? The serial number wouldn't match but a 17 slide on a 17 frame is ok right? Yes, no problem, because Glock has made that combination (Glock 17 slide on a Glock 17 frame...I know duh). The frame is the gun and you can't change barrel length etc. so 17 slide is fine, 34 slide, no go. This is where the enforceability question comes into play. As we've established, serial numbers can be different. I can't - as an RO - use that to make a definitive ruling that the frame is a 17/34/22 or whatever. Granted if a someone wants to shoot a 34 on a 19 frame - yeah -- we know that one doesn't match. How does this then get determined? Do I start the process of bumping everyone I check because their SN is different - after all, it's on them to be able to prove its a 34 frame? You expect them to carry an invoice around from Glock of the swap out? I don't know. I know why the rule is there - it's just the feasibility of being able to enforce - in the Glock line at least - is hard to get my head around it. It's like jury nullification - we know the sob is guilty of the crime - we just don't believe it to be a crime. It is difficult to enforce in some cases. That said if someone shows up with a Gen 1 frame and a 34 slide, I know that gun didn't come that way. Same if he shows up with an RTF 34. They didn't make that one either. There are a whole list of examples within the Glock line that are possible combinations, but illegal in Production. The rules are meant to be firearm specific. Unless you want a 300 page rule book instead of the current one. No you don't bump someone because the serial number is different. That's irrelevant to whether it's a legal gun or not. I can take a 17 slide and put it on another 17 frame no problem. If you know it's illegal, bump them. Some examples are above. The most common I would imagine would be someone telling you what their combo is. People ask me all the time if some widget is legal or not. If it's not, and they already shot, they get bumped. Same thing if we're halfway through a match and a shooter asks if his Glock 35 Frame is okay to run with his 34 slide. This is not the best rule we could hope for as Glock shooters. I would love to run my 17 RTF frame with a 34 slide. Ain't gonna happen, ever. The rule has to cover all manufacturers and possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 To the shooter that said he'd just not renew and tell Sedro why. Good luck with that. I've never heard of a member quitting and telling Sedro it was because of a rule. Maybe nobody has since I've been AD. Or more likely that message about one annoyed member just doesn't make it to the BOD. If you want something to change, tell your SC, tell your AD. If you quit, well you're not a member any more so why would I care about your opinion? Good lord. I didn't say I intended to not renew, I said, bad rules (or the accumulation thereof) are the kinds of things that make me not want to buy a life membership. It's certainly feasible that at some point there could be enough bad rules that any number of people quit and split off to join some other organization. For now I'm annoyed, but only mildly - it's not like this rule affects me or anything. To your last point, do you really think businesses don't care why people defect? What do you think would happen, say, at a meeting of Home Depot executives if one of them said, "Hey, I don't care about those customers who started shopping at Lowe's; they're not Home Depot customers any more so why would I care about their opinions?" Again, I'm not quitting, just mildly annoyed at what I think is a bad rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Not saying I wouldn't care if there was a mass exodus. I'm just saying I have never heard of a single member quitting because they weren't happy with something specific. We lose a lot of members each year. I'm sure one or two has called in a complaint. I'm just saying I've never heard it. We don't do exit interviews when people don't renew, although that's actually not a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Again, I'm not quitting,.... Thank God. I had started shopping around to buy you your first racketball. You just saved me some money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 The problem with the franken gun thing is the person could buy the gun used and the serial numbers not match. It could have been the gun was assembled by the original owner or it could have been the frame had a problem and got the frame swapped out by glock and the serial numbers do not match. Unless the shooter states the frame came from a different model then there really is no way to know. The problem with glocks are the frames are not marked as to model or caliber the slide is. Take a 22 frame and put 34 top end and take it to a gun shop. Its getting logged in and sold as a 34 based on the slide. Someone could easily buy a used gun like this. I have had a carry gun need a replacement frame due to a rail snapping off. If this were a competition gun should it basically need to be pitched because a 43 dollar replacement frame has a different number? To really play the devils advocate, say a 22s slide is destroyed. Guy decides to send the frame in with a 34 top end and guts on it for replacement. Glock logs it in as a 34 and ships it out as a 34 with a brand new frame(that was never on a 22). Is that gun a 34 or a 22? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 It is difficult to enforce in some cases. That said if someone shows up with a Gen 1 frame and a 34 slide, I know that gun didn't come that way. Same if he shows up with an RTF 34. They didn't make that one either. There are a whole list of examples within the Glock line that are possible combinations, but illegal in Production. The rules are meant to be firearm specific. Unless you want a 300 page rule book instead of the current one. No you don't bump someone because the serial number is different. That's irrelevant to whether it's a legal gun or not. I can take a 17 slide and put it on another 17 frame no problem. If you know it's illegal, bump them. Some examples are above. The most common I would imagine would be someone telling you what their combo is. People ask me all the time if some widget is legal or not. If it's not, and they already shot, they get bumped. Same thing if we're halfway through a match and a shooter asks if his Glock 35 Frame is okay to run with his 34 slide. This is not the best rule we could hope for as Glock shooters. I would love to run my 17 RTF frame with a 34 slide. Ain't gonna happen, ever. The rule has to cover all manufacturers and possibilities. That's an excellent illustration of the point I intended to make - let me expand a little. There are those out there that have been around a lot longer than I- and into handguns a lot longer than I. It's kinda like the trick question in "My Cousin Vinny" - you need to have the knowledge to know that the question was unanswerable. For example, I wouldn't know a Gen 1 or 2 frame wasn't available in a 34 had you not just told me. An RTF2 34 on the other hand - i've been around long enough to know that. I might still be a great RO - no one told me I needed to know the history of every gun on the planet! The rub is said individual shooting the frankenglock will get away with it until they run into someone like you. It's not that we can't bump them - it's that not everyone has the background and knowledge to make it consistently enforced at all levels of matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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