What are you looking for when building an open gun ?

[nexus]

I'm planning to build a 38s , what are the factors that i have to consider ie ( compensator , parts , ....)

Edited February 7, 2011 by nexus

[Jon Merricks]

The gunsmith..... unless you have experience with open guns I would see what parts the smith likes to work with and why.

[blkbrd]

Second on what the smith wants to use.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I suggest you try shooting some different ones so you can see what you like. Shooting a shorty and a 5" are different and either one may suit you. I shot a shorty 9mm all last year and did not like it at first until I found a good load for me. The 5" I will be shooting this year is going through changes until again I find what I like. You may just want to buy a used open pistol first and go from there. A good used STI TruBor would be an inexpensive way to start and can be made to shoot very well with the right load and bullet weight. Hope this helps. Thanks, Eric

[818-DVC]

Is this a DIY build or are you going to have a competent pistolsmith build it? I usually start with a box of parts I like.

Aside from the obvious frames & slides. I personally use EGW internals, (koenig hammer, strut, hard sear, discnonnector, FP/FP Stop, spring, slidestop, reverse plug, guide rod. Ed brown safeties, 1911 completion kit w Plunger, mainspring, cap, sear spring, & all 11 pins, springs to finish. I use Shuemann barrels, & I Like bedell, gans, Dawson, SV or MC Ti comps. Aftec, Ice, etc.

My gun has a cheely 90 mount & racker with a C-more 8moa dot (steel shooter) and I like .38sc

Edited February 8, 2011 by 818-DVC

[calishootr]

fondle and or shoot a bunch of em BEFORE you take the plunge to the dark side, its an expensive proposition to say the least, talk to the owners see how they like em, or not like about em??? understand its a CUSTOM piece that may or may not work out of the box right away(none of mine were plug an play) ammo??? again creating a load forthe particular pistol to run can be daunting, ive been shooting open for damn near 20 yrs andthere have been headaches butthen again there has been a hell of a lot of fun as well....ask a TON of questions before the wallet ever comes into play...

[CocoBolo]

Nexus, I probably express more opinions on open guns than most, some very strong. I would suggest that you shoot some if you can and pickup a good used gun get a year or two under your belt as an open shooter. After you have some expierence with open guns and you have confirmed that its your game then you will know what it is that you want, in your open gun.

What I like goes against the main stream, I like bushing barrel and cone comps, but most are building and buying Bull barrel guns. I just prefer the feel of the gun, and when you get to open its all about the feel and fit of the gun. Some like them heavy some think ultra light is the way to go, we got our flat and soft crowd, I'm on that side of the fence and then you have the other side that like it snappy and say snappy is fast. The more research you do the more confused you can become. The other big factor is that over time your preferences willl change as your skill level changes.

To put it mildly each open gun has its own personality and behavior just like the owner, when the two are the same a happy bond is formed.

Edited February 8, 2011 by CocoBolo

[G-ManBart]

The majority of parts are going to be the same/similar as you would use for a good Limited gun or SS build. That leaves the scope/mount combination, barrel/slide length & style and comp to sort out. The biggies are 90* or conventional mount, bull or bushing barrel, short or 5", barrel ports/popple holes or not, and comp style.

The most important thing is that the gun runs 100%...nothing else makes all that much difference until you get to the extremes. R,

[pjb45]

I would second, third and fourth the gunsmith is the critical success factor. I have seen a lot of Open guns at Nationals. The guns that run are winners. I have seen some famous winners lose a match because of the gun not working.

Call and talk with some of the major gunsmith about platforms and preferences.

Parts are not just parts. Do not try and save money on parts.

[BCrane]

+1 to both Bart and Ron. Find an open shooter you can ask questions to, and they'll usually let you shoot their gun. I have a friend locally who pretty much got me hooked in the USPSA thing.. and between him, and a CRAP ton of PM's to Bart and Ron, I got a good idea of what to start out with. I started with an old school open setup that I got for a smoking deal. I went from C to B to A (barely) in a matter of my first 8 classifiers. Once I shot more and more, I knew what I wanted from an open gun.

But it wasnt until I shot different guns that I really learned what I liked. If I shot Ron's gun, I would probably hate it, whereas you may love it. I found what I liked, sold my first gun for almost what I paid for it, and bought a high end open gun.

Once you nail down what you want, about the only thing left is the 'smith. There are only 2 I would go with, but I like to support local builders. There are quite a few great 'smiths out there.

[CocoBolo]

Since I'm waiting for it to get light outside, so I can go out and work on the house plumbing, let me explain my definition of soft and flat. In a production gun my CZ Shadow 9 mm shooting 147gr with 3.2gr of clays is what I call soft and flat, by contrast my Sig226 is a bucking recoiling piece by comparison. My open gun running major loads at 170f has far less flip and recoil than the CZ Shadow. That is how I can best define soft and flat. For me the first order of business is the ergonomics of the gun it has to fit you hands and be comfortable to shoot. The next order of business is that it has to be tame enough to control and shoot fast. Keep in mind that this assumes Bart's #1 idea it has to run. It is far easier to keep a 38S running than a 9 major as the major factor is ammo, and it is easier to product consistently good 38S than 9 major.

Breaking it down to its simpliest form the open gun differs with an optic and a compensator. I think there is no argument that he C-more is the defacto standard. IMHO the sideways mount is easier for a new open shooter to master. Next is length of barrel, I thik that shorties are an acquired taste and seem to be a bit snappier than the full size so for a new open shooter a full size would be the way to start. Full size comes in two sizes, the bushing cone which is a 5" and the Bull screw on which is a 5.4-5.5" barrel. the extra length is for the comp to screw on to. The trade off between the tow is about +2oz of wight in the barrel comp on the bull. The bull gun will out last the cone comp gun, as the cone and slide tend to wear on the cone set up and cause accuracy problems sooner than the bull barrel wears the slide. The cone and the bull have a little different recoil profile when fired and its is a matter of preference to the feel IMHO. My expierence with the tow is one has no great advantage over the other but I prefer the feel of the cone comped gun. Since I am a charter member of soft and flat school I like a large efficient comp but still am mindfull of weight. Brazos has a ThunderComp III which has 4 large top ports and that comp to me peforms better than the ThunderComp II, reduces recoil and flip more with the same load, and it is light weight. I run the Dawson DPII's, which in my testing a use have provided the most recoil and flip reduction albiet heavier than the Brazos. My smith is over the top into getting the slide as light as possible, this has two sides, one the wight of the gun helps to absorb recoil and cut flip but the slide is a moving part and the more it weights the bigger the hammer that hits your palm, I find that a weight around 10oz is a good balance and works well with the Comps I have chosen, Gans guns has a lot of info on slide weight and comps and that relationship.

Looking back at my love affair with the open gun I started with a $600 Eaa SilverTeam in 40 with a Tasco Pro Point. I remember my first match shooting factory ammo and cleaning the TX Star with 5 shots real fast and I was hooked on open. The mag capacity soon moved me to a Tanfogilio Gold Team V8, still remembered as the most accurate hand gun I have ever shoot, but I go a deal on an STI Briley highly modified, and I still own the gun, just converted to 9 major and its a shooter. Next I snagged a Competitor which I did a remake on after a while, but I also went thru an SVI open gun, and another STI Trubor, I took the Briley and Competitor and did remakes on them to get them to where they needed to be for me. I also picked up a shortie top end and modified it and I like shooting it but with 3 full sizes it hardly gets shot. My new gun build was everything I leared along the way. my shooting went up about 10% almost immediatley after I started shooting the new gun. While the recoil and flip in the new gun is about the same as the other two it is the ergonomics that make the big difference, the gun fits my hand, balances well, feels natural and points well for me

Just some food for thought.

[T Bacus]

Number one... reliability

Number two... durability

Number three. accuracy

I get to look at a lot of guns and it still amazes me how many smiths out there can't fit a barrel properly.

[Bob Hostetter]

1) 100% reliability, nothing else matters without this.

2) Accuracy, preferrably well under 1.5" at 25 yards. You want to absolutely know that every C, D, and miss/no shoot is yours and not the gun's.

3) Ergonomic's, you want the gun to fit you in terms of weight, balance point, trigger reach, sights, grip size/shape, etc. It needs to feel good to you, not the local hotshot or GM.

Hmmm, I just realized I want the same thing out of all my guns....

[pjb45]

A couple years ago I had a nice conversation with Chris Tilley about Open guns for an article in Front Sight. I was getting ready to go over to the dark side and get one.

His point of view was for him, he wanted an Open Gun where the dot did not move much. In his experience, lack of muzzle flip produced more recoil.

One of his shooting friends perferred less recoil and the muzzle flip was not important.

Whereas there are a lot of different types of Comps that all worked well and he had his choice, in our conversation Chris focused on load development. He experimented with differenct bullet and powder weight combination that meet his criteria. I concluded from the conversation, that this was the next step in developing an excellent Open Gun. To me, it is important to remember, Chris' guns (SV) already met the criteria of realiability, accuracy, and fit.

I think my point being, once you succeed at the first three criteria, you are not finished. You need to tailor a load(s) for it that fits your shooting style. My sense is, this last part never stops evolving.

Determine your shooting goals, then decide on the gunsmith. If you can afford it, buy a new $5,000 Infinity, Bedel, Brazos, etc or buy used, or settle for an out of the box STI. The first group might last you a lifetime, whereas the second group you may be upgrading or modifying.

I brought a used SV and have not regretted it. I know who built it, I know who owned it which helped in the decision making. And I did not spend $5,000. More importantly, if something really does go south I can send it to SV or Kodiak Precision to get it fixed right.

[G-ManBart]

I think my point being, once you succeed at the first three criteria, you are not finished. You need to tailor a load(s) for it that fits your shooting style. My sense is, this last part never stops evolving.

After a certain point, if anything changes, I think it's going to be minor.

When I got my Bedell, I worked up a load and used it for a year. I then tweaked it from 125 to 121gr bullets...that's it. A year later I had the Millennium gun built and worked up a load with 115s for both guns....no changes since then. It was good enough to make Master, and certainly won't prevent me from making GM if I do my part. I've tested and chrono'd lots of other stuff, but for practice and matches, it's been the same for a couple of years now. R,

[Singlestack]

I've shot the same load for 8 years. I asked my GS when I first got it what to load. Never tried anything else. Chasing the perfect load is a waste of time IMO. Pick one and get used to it.

[818-DVC]

The only times I mess with my load much is when I run out powder and it's on back order for like a year, and had to sub my VV for IMR. I like em both with 121-124's.

The smith who built my open gun gave me 2 loads to try, and they have worked great in both of my open guns, as well as friends shorties or popple holed etc.

Edited February 10, 2011 by 818-DVC

[nexus]

A couple years ago I had a nice conversation with Chris Tilley about Open guns for an article in Front Sight. I was getting ready to go over to the dark side and get one.

His point of view was for him, he wanted an Open Gun where the dot did not move much. In his experience, lack of muzzle flip produced more recoil.

One of his shooting friends perferred less recoil and the muzzle flip was not important.

Whereas there are a lot of different types of Comps that all worked well and he had his choice, in our conversation Chris focused on load development. He experimented with differenct bullet and powder weight combination that meet his criteria. I concluded from the conversation, that this was the next step in developing an excellent Open Gun. To me, it is important to remember, Chris' guns (SV) already met the criteria of realiability, accuracy, and fit.

I think my point being, once you succeed at the first three criteria, you are not finished. You need to tailor a load(s) for it that fits your shooting style. My sense is, this last part never stops evolving.

Determine your shooting goals, then decide on the gunsmith. If you can afford it, buy a new $5,000 Infinity, Bedel, Brazos, etc or buy used, or settle for an out of the box STI. The first group might last you a lifetime, whereas the second group you may be upgrading or modifying.

I brought a used SV and have not regretted it. I know who built it, I know who owned it which helped in the decision making. And I did not spend $5,000. More importantly, if something really does go south I can send it to SV or Kodiak Precision to get it fixed right.

Hi , do you have any idea with the Limcat open guns made by Johnny Lim ? thanks..

[CocoBolo]

Here is a perfect example of a good used gun you can shoot for a while or longer till you sort it all out. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122503

I have shot this gun with 125gr Zero JHP's with an N350 load and it is very nice, Jerry has shot matches in the same squad with me and I know the gun runs.. The slide is heavier than I like but having shot it I wouldn't change a thing other than the mag release since I have big hands and use the Brazos button on all my guns. Jerry bought a Brazos limited gun about 6 months ago and has given up the dark side, shoots limited and 3-Gun. He is an engineer at Toyota and very precison and detailed oriented.

[Foxbat]

I've shot the same load for 8 years. I asked my GS when I first got it what to load. Never tried anything else. Chasing the perfect load is a waste of time IMO. Pick one and get used to it.

I feel the same, but if someone wants to spend his time trying loads - fine with me. Me - I would rather be practicing.

[nexus]

thanks for all the replies !!!

[D__]

Derek at Millenium is awesome. Love his guns - make sure you give a call before you make a decision. Nice dude - that's the selling point for me. Is your gunsmith out there shooting and setting up matches or just a guy you heard about from some guy? Makes a difference to me.

[calishootr]

nexus, I have 2 of Johnny's guns 1 open andthe other limited, the good part ofthe whole thing backthen was that he was local(down in the san fran bay area, since then he is now relocated up in the reno Nv. area) my opengun needed a lil tweaking, which he was at the match with me, so stage by stage we worked on the problem, sincethen its run like a raped ape(going on 10+ yrs, its one ofthe original long heavy turbo comps) his limited gun also had problems(hey, they are custom toys and need a lil tweaking) but i wasnt so lucky with him being local as he moved so it was a few phonecalls w/him and trial by fire/error to fix things, again sincethefix, it also runs great, tho i hear that his latest open toys are garnering some impressive prices

[Foxbat]

While I completely agree with the notion of selecting the smith first and foremost, there is a caveat... it helps if you already have experience with his work. Otherwise, just going with recommendations of the "I have my open by XYZ and it is the best gun I ever tried!" type does not guarantee YOU will get the gun that you will like. I have and had several guns by very highly rated smiths that simply did not work for me. That is why my new one is being built for the guy whose guns I love - I already have two of his creations, and they work for me like no other gun.

Gaining such experience can be difficult and expensive, so your first one will likely be a miss... but hopefully a near miss!

[blaster113]

A good used gun is the best way to get started, both cost wise and to see if you really like Open. You can usually sell a second hand gun for close to what you paid for it so you do not lose to much there. If possible, buy the absolute best parts you can afford when having the gun built. Top quality parts definitely affect function and reliability of your pistol. You don't want to be constantly replacing cheap parts. Since Open is mainly a once in a while fun thing for me, it was suggested that I use a sideways scope mount (Quinn, Cheely, etc.) to ease the transition. I rarely have trouble finding the dot even though I dont play in Open too often (mainly shoot Limited). I also suggest slide lightening if you can afford it, makes the gun easier to shoot. Gans guns built my Open gun and has all kinds of slide lightening options on his website. My gun has been 100% reliable, the most important thing for our game. If a custom gun is being built sometimes its best to leave it in the white for a while so you can shoot it to see if there's any changes to be made. If possible, shoot as many guns as possible before making the leap. I also suggest .38 super or SC, wider powder choices over 9major. Also try and talk to some of the higher ranked shooters in your club to see what they're preferences are, to help you with your final decision.