Checking targets during a Standards CoF

[BayouSlide]

after I posted this, I thought of a question, sorry for the hijac.

But lets say you have 3 targets at 25 yds, and you have to shoot 2 at them(virgina count), and then move up to 15 yards and shoot them in a second string. Can you go and up to the targets and visually inspect your first set of shots before going to the 15yd line and shooting the second string? Is there anything in the rule book that says you can't?

In regard to Sean's interesting question, at the risk of drifting the thread a little, I'd interpret the rules to imply this could be forbidden (thankfully so...imagine the delays if everyone in a match were permitted to check the targets between strings in a 50 yd standard) based on the following:

It may be two strings but it is only one COF. The initial "Make Ready" signifies the start of the COF (8.3.1). Per 8.3.6.1, additional commands such "Reload if required and reholster" are permitted to prepare for the next string (8.3.6.1), but the COF has begun and does not end until the "Range is clear" command signifies the end of the COF (8.3.8). Per 8.3.1.1, the after the start of the COF (at "Make Ready") the competitor may not move away from the start position without the approval and supervision of the RO...after all, he has a loaded and holstered gun at this point and he is within a COF and about to commence the second string (two strings, one COF).

But in leafing through the rule book, this is the best I can come up...that an RO could refuse to allow this, but is this sufficient or am I missing something? If Sean insisted, I refused and he took it to arbitration, what rule might he cite that would require permitting this under such circumstances

Maybe the mods could move this to a new thread in the Rules section of the forum.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos!

Edited February 5, 2011 by BayouSlide

[Sean Gaines]

after I posted this, I thought of a question, sorry for the hijac.

But lets say you have 3 targets at 25 yds, and you have to shoot 2 at them(virgina count), and then move up to 15 yards and shoot them in a second string. Can you go and up to the targets and visually inspect your first set of shots before going to the 15yd line and shooting the second string? Is there anything in the rule book that says you can't?

In regard to Sean's interesting question, at the risk of drifting the thread a little, I'd interpret the rules to imply this could be forbidden (thankfully so...imagine the delays if everyone in a match were permitted to check the targets between strings in a 50 yd standard) based on the following:

It may be two strings but it is only one COF. The initial "Make Ready" signifies the start of the COF (8.3.1). Per 8.3.6.1, additional commands such "Reload if required and reholster" are permitted to prepare for the next string (8.3.6.1), but the COF has begun does not end until the "Range is clear" command signifies the end of the COF (8.3.8). Per 8.3.1.1, the after the start of the COF (at "Make Ready") the competitor may not move away from the start position without the approval and supervision of the RO...after all, he has a loaded and holstered gun at this point and he is within a COF and about to commence the second string (two strings, one COF).

But in leafing through the rule book, this is the best I can come up...that an RO could refuse to allow this, but is this sufficient or am I missing something? If Sean insisted, I refused and he took it to arbitration, what rule might he cite that would require permitting this under such circumstances

Maybe the mods could move this to a new thread in the Rules section of the forum.

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos!

I guess to keep this in order, the right commands must be said. sometimes during standards the ro will say "if finished load up for your next string" if I am not finished, I know this is exagerated, I suppose I could walk to the targets with loaded gun in hand and If I see if there is a miss go back to the box and fire a round at that target, and then reload for my next string. Of course that wouldn't be worth it. But in theroy it seems like that would be the case with that command. Then you could actually make up the shot on the next string.

Now with the command that you stated (reload if neccessary and holster for your next string) was given as a command then, I think the shooter would have no grounds to go and inspect the targets.

[steel1212]

There is a rule, I can't qoute it and I hope I"m not making it up, that you can only be so far from the RO. If you start off up range with out the ROs permission that could be bad.

[Skydiver]

There is a rule, I can't qoute it and I hope I"m not making it up, that you can only be so far from the RO. If you start off up range with out the ROs permission that could be bad.

Huh? If there is such a rule, then that would mean speed demons need to make sure the RO's keep up with them as they fly through a course?

[ima45dv8]

I'm guessing this is the one CorEy is thinking of...

8.3.1.1 Once the "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

[steel1212]

There is a rule, I can't qoute it and I hope I"m not making it up, that you can only be so far from the RO. If you start off up range with out the ROs permission that could be bad.

Huh? If there is such a rule, then that would mean speed demons need to make sure the RO's keep up with them as they fly through a course?

Had to go and make me look it up didn't you. Since its a standards and your shooting from a box your not going any where but that box. So....

8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor

must not move away from the start location prior to issuance

of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the

direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

If your running a field course the RO has to keep up with because your in the shooting area shooting the course. On a 50 yards standard stage your in a box and have no need to go else where as there is no other box for that string.

[Skydiver]

Yes, but once the start signal has been given, what compels the shooter to stay at the start position after shooting his first string, but before making ready for the second string?

[steel1212]

Yes, but once the start signal has been given, what compels the shooter to stay at the start position after shooting his first string, but before making ready for the second string?

If you have nowhere to go what compels the RO to have to follow you when the shooting box is 3x3? You have to be under the supervision of the RO and there is no reason for you to go forward.

[mhs]

Yes, but once the start signal has been given, what compels the shooter to stay at the start position after shooting his first string, but before making ready for the second string?

If you have nowhere to go what compels the RO to have to follow you when the shooting box is 3x3? You have to be under the supervision of the RO and there is no reason for you to go forward.

There's also no reason not to, if you feel like it. Freestyle.

[steel1212]

Yes, but once the start signal has been given, what compels the shooter to stay at the start position after shooting his first string, but before making ready for the second string?

If you have nowhere to go what compels the RO to have to follow you when the shooting box is 3x3? You have to be under the supervision of the RO and there is no reason for you to go forward.

There's also no reason not to, if you feel like it. Freestyle.

Because the RO didn't give you permission? Because it would slow down the match. I'm guessing you could arbitrate it but if its going to drag down the match and it doesn't matter, you get what you shot, do you really feel the need to arbitrate it? If you do arbitrate my call what rule are you going to site to say that you can do it? I already gave you mine. You can shoot the stage freestyle all you want, but your SHOOTING freestyle. Not checking your targets for hits freestyle.

Edited February 4, 2011 by steel1212

[ima45dv8]

Let me play Devil's advocate for a minute...

Can I step out and fire a shot? Sure. As the RO, all you can do is be ready to pop up however many fingers you need to keep track of my penalties, but there's no reason to Stop me from doing it.

So let's take that a little further. I fire my shots, and without warning bust out running full speed towards the targets. As an RO, can you stop me? Not unless I commit a DQ-able offense. I literally could run all the way down range with my gun loaded and in my hand, and there's no rule I can find that would prevent it. I could then holster my gun and walk back to the shooting position. I could even hold it in my hand if I did it safely. If the RO stopped me (out of sheer surprise and shock), it would likely result in a reshoot.

Remember, I made that sprint after the start signal, so 8.3.1.1 doesn't apply.

There's too much grey area around the idea of when the first string is completed to put a hard edge on it.

[Fireant]

Oh, man just wait until the classifier next weekend. I want someone videoing the RO's face when I take off after the first string.

[BayouSlide]

There is a rule, I can't qoute it and I hope I"m not making it up, that you can only be so far from the RO. If you start off up range with out the ROs permission that could be bad.

Huh? If there is such a rule, then that would mean speed demons need to make sure the RO's keep up with them as they fly through a course?

Had to go and make me look it up didn't you. Since its a standards and your shooting from a box your not going any where but that box. So....

8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor

must not move away from the start location prior to issuance

of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the

direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

If your running a field course the RO has to keep up with because your in the shooting area shooting the course. On a 50 yards standard stage your in a box and have no need to go else where as there is no other box for that string.

I was also thinking of the stages where the first string is from one box, then the shooter and RO move together to a box closer to the targets for the second string.

Curtis

[BayouSlide]

Yes, but once the start signal has been given, what compels the shooter to stay at the start position after shooting his first string, but before making ready for the second string?

There is no Make Ready command for the second string. After the first string is complete the RO will require you to reholster. If the next string is from the same box, you would only hear "Are you ready....Standby....BEEP".

Curtis

[Skydiver]

Oh, and to add even more chaos into the mix, let's say the following happens on a Virginia Count standards stage that does not patch targets between strings.

String 1:

"Make Ready". "Are you ready?" "Standby." "Beep".

I shoot the string, and then bust out of the box and run up to the target.

At the target, I realize there in a miss on one or more targets.

I holster my gun, turn back up range and walk to the next start position.

"If you are finished, prepare for your next string."

I make ready for the next string.

String 2:

"Are you ready?" "Standby."

Before the beep, I go ahead and draw.

An RO should call "Stop", note a "false start", and prepare me to restart as per 8.3.4.1.

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

So does the phrase "once the course of fire has been restored" mean that targets need to be re-patched? Common sense says no, but it's not spelled out. With it not spelled out, can this be abused by the shooter to effect a reshoot (since by patching the targets, now there will be insufficient entries in the scoresheet)? Or is it simply unsportsmanlike conduct to try to effect a reshoot and therefore a DQ (ala deliberately removing eye/ear protection)?

[JAFO]

There is no Make Ready command for the second string. After the first string is complete the RO will require you to reholster. If the next string is from the same box, you would only hear "Are you ready....Standby....BEEP".

The RO should require you to "Make ready for your next string" (or some similar command) that would start the process for the next string, and you would be compelled to remain in the Start position until the beep for that string. If you're considered to be at the start position before the beep, you couldn't go forward.

But, in the case that Skydiver mentioned, the competitor moved forward prior to the command to make ready for the next string. In that case, I'd discourage it for the sake of time delay, but I think it would be legal unless otherwise written in the stage description:

10.2.9 A competitor who leaves a shooting location may return and shoot

again from the same location provided they do so safely. However,

written stage briefings for Classifiers, Standard Exercises and Level I

matches may prohibit such actions, in which case one procedural

penalty per shot fired will apply.

Even if the shooter does not fire another shot in the string, this would seem to indicate it's OK to leave and come back (safely) if not otherwise prohibited.

Edited February 5, 2011 by JAFO

[JAFO]

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

So does the phrase "once the course of fire has been restored" mean that targets need to be re-patched? Common sense says no, but it's not spelled out. With it not spelled out, can this be abused by the shooter to effect a reshoot (since by patching the targets, now there will be insufficient entries in the scoresheet)? Or is it simply unsportsmanlike conduct to try to effect a reshoot and therefore a DQ (ala deliberately removing eye/ear protection)?

You'd be restarted for that string. The targets would have to be taped if you started shooting before the RO stopped you, because there'd be no way to restore the CoF to the way it was at the beginning of that string.

[Skydiver]

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely ("false start" prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

So does the phrase "once the course of fire has been restored" mean that targets need to be re-patched? Common sense says no, but it's not spelled out. With it not spelled out, can this be abused by the shooter to effect a reshoot (since by patching the targets, now there will be insufficient entries in the scoresheet)? Or is it simply unsportsmanlike conduct to try to effect a reshoot and therefore a DQ (ala deliberately removing eye/ear protection)?

You'd be restarted for that string. The targets would have to be taped if you started shooting before the RO stopped you, because there'd be no way to restore the CoF to the way it was at the beginning of that string.

So the way to effect the reshoot is:

String 2:

"Are you ready?" "Standby."

Before the beep, I go ahead, draw, and start shooting.

[sperman]

So let's take that a little further. I fire my shots, and without warning bust out running full speed towards the targets. As an RO, can you stop me? Not unless I commit a DQ-able offense.

It may be a bit extreme, but if you told the shooter not to run away from you, and he continues to do so, isn't that a DQ'able offense? It's a bit of a chicken and the egg. You can't stop the shooter unless you are going to DQ them, but you can't issue the stop command until they've committed a DQ-able offense.

I know it's not a legal range command, but if you tell the shooter not to proceed downrange, and they do so, can you DQ them?

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

[Coach]

So after the first string a shooter starts to go forward to check his targets. As RO I ask him to return to the box, and to not go forward. The shooter continues forward and checks his targets after ignoring my command to return to the box.

Would this be DQ able under 10.6.2

I would hate to be this way, but it sounds like a reasonable request fromthe range officer, and the shooter faile to comply to the command. Does not have to be written into the stage briefing the way I read it.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Coach

[Nik Habicht]

Let me play Devil's advocate for a minute...

Can I step out and fire a shot? Sure. As the RO, all you can do is be ready to pop up however many fingers you need to keep track of my penalties, but there's no reason to Stop me from doing it.

So let's take that a little further. I fire my shots, and without warning bust out running full speed towards the targets. As an RO, can you stop me? Not unless I commit a DQ-able offense. I literally could run all the way down range with my gun loaded and in my hand, and there's no rule I can find that would prevent it. I could then holster my gun and walk back to the shooting position. I could even hold it in my hand if I did it safely. If the RO stopped me (out of sheer surprise and shock), it would likely result in a reshoot.

Remember, I made that sprint after the start signal, so 8.3.1.1 doesn't apply.

There's too much grey area around the idea of when the first string is completed to put a hard edge on it.

I'll add to Mark's devil's advocacy -- the RO's only recourse in that scenario is to issue the "Stop" command -- at which point, the shooter has a case for a reshoot....

[Nik Habicht]

So after the first string a shooter starts to go forward to check his targets. As RO I ask him to return to the box, and to not go forward. The shooter continues forward and checks his targets after ignoring my command to return to the box.

Would this be DQ able under 10.6.2

I would hate to be this way, but it sounds like a reasonable request fromthe range officer, and the shooter faile to comply to the command. Does not have to be written into the stage briefing the way I read it.

And at the point the shooter turns to you and says, "I'm sorry, I wasn't finished shooting the string." Now you're looking at a reshoot or an arbitrtation....

Now, the speculation is pretty silly, and most folks won't do this -- but there are ways for this to bite the RO....

A DQ under 10.6.1 or 10.6.2 is going to need to be a last resort --- and the match staff will really need to have their ducks in a row. Delay of match, or not liking how the competitor is gaming the stage are probably not going to cut it...

[Nik Habicht]

Oh, and to add even more chaos into the mix, let's say the following happens on a Virginia Count standards stage that does not patch targets between strings.

String 1:

"Make Ready". "Are you ready?" "Standby." "Beep".

I shoot the string, and then bust out of the box and run up to the target.

At the target, I realize there in a miss on one or more targets.

I holster my gun, turn back up range and walk to the next start position.

"If you are finished, prepare for your next string."

I make ready for the next string.

String 2:

"Are you ready?" "Standby."

Before the beep, I go ahead and draw.

An RO should call "Stop", note a "false start", and prepare me to restart as per 8.3.4.1.

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

So does the phrase "once the course of fire has been restored" mean that targets need to be re-patched? Common sense says no, but it's not spelled out. With it not spelled out, can this be abused by the shooter to effect a reshoot (since by patching the targets, now there will be insufficient entries in the scoresheet)? Or is it simply unsportsmanlike conduct to try to effect a reshoot and therefore a DQ (ala deliberately removing eye/ear protection)?

Depends: Once, we're likely to chalk that up to shooter error. Twice: Hmm, maybe. Third time: now it's likelier yet....

[Nik Habicht]

Clearly it's February. Realistically, I think the odds of me seeing a GM card arrive in the mail in 2011, are higher than the chances of encountering this scenario on the range....

[Coach]

So after the first string a shooter starts to go forward to check his targets. As RO I ask him to return to the box, and to not go forward. The shooter continues forward and checks his targets after ignoring my command to return to the box.

Would this be DQ able under 10.6.2

I would hate to be this way, but it sounds like a reasonable request fromthe range officer, and the shooter faile to comply to the command. Does not have to be written into the stage briefing the way I read it.

And at the point the shooter turns to you and says, "I'm sorry, I wasn't finished shooting the string." Now you're looking at a reshoot or an arbitrtation....

Now, the speculation is pretty silly, and most folks won't do this -- but there are ways for this to bite the RO....

A DQ under 10.6.1 or 10.6.2 is going to need to be a last resort --- and the match staff will really need to have their ducks in a row. Delay of match, or not liking how the competitor is gaming the stage are probably not going to cut it...

I agree a last resort to DQ, but it would be doable and delaying the match can and is a concern. If someone shoots the string and reholsters and then is squinting looking for hits and then starts forward to look closer. As RO I say stay in the box and they ignore it I am going to repeat myself and if then ignored the situation has changed.

My point being that shooters are not free to roam around wherever and whenever. The rule book does not support that behavior.

As RO I need to allow everyone to check their targets or no one to check their targets.