Pin grip safety?

[Jim Watson]

4 hours ago, MarkS_A18138 said:

Does not matter what anyone thinks, the ok has already been give by HQ if a 2011 from the factory has only a beaver tail then the gun is legal! If HQ would have not deemed it legal than the wilson XDC 9 series 1911/2011ish pistol would not be legal! So Repete it does look like he has found a 1908!

 

That certainly settles the matter.  But where can we read this as circulated by IDPA?  If they did.  Secret pronouncements are a bad habit there.

 

The Wilson EDC 9 has a grip safety, which may not be deactivated.

The Wilson EDC X9 does not have a grip safety. It is getting very far away from the parent design to be called a "1911".

 

If you want an antique CDP division, the Army requested and got a grip safety on the Colt/Browning of 1907 and all developmental guns after that kept one.

 

 

 

[shred]

FWIW, the 1911 has always had a grip safety.  The thumb-safety was the add-on, despite years of lore to the contrary.  Plain as day if you look at the patent.

 

Here's JMB's sketches of the thumb safety on his personal copy of the 1911 patent (it came up for auction years ago), with the notation "additional features added in model 1911 adopted by Gov after application had been filed in Pat Office".

 

The grip safety was already there.

 

 

 

 

[Drell]

So now we are in 2024 and every Custom 2011 made today doesn’t have a grip safety. The rule books removed the word “grip” from rule 8.1.7.4, So what is the latest interpretation? Can I shoot my Staccato with a pinned grip safety? Or do I have to shoot my Atlas which never came with one?

[ddc]

13 hours ago, Drell said:

So now we are in 2024 and every Custom 2011 made today doesn’t have a grip safety. The rule books removed the word “grip” from rule 8.1.7.4, So what is the latest interpretation? Can I shoot my Staccato with a pinned grip safety? Or do I have to shoot my Atlas which never came with one?

 

It is no longer required. If anybody says it is then they are out of date with the current state of the sport.

 

I have an email from my AC which explicitly states that it is ok to pin it.

 

And there is at least one thread on the IDPA FB group where this is discussed.

 

Pin it.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, ddc said:

 

It is no longer required. If anybody says it is then they are out of date with the current state of the sport.

 

I have an email from my AC which explicitly states that it is ok to pin it.

 

And there is at least one thread on the IDPA FB group where this is discussed.

 

Pin it.

 

I started a thread in a FB group recently because I feel the rule is not worded vary well. Consensus seems to be all the AC's say it's legal. My AC told me the same and then said HQ was pissed about my post and wanted me to remove it. 

 

It does not seem like everyone is 100% on the same page. I have now pinned all my GS's. 

[ddc]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I started a thread in a FB group recently because I feel the rule is not worded vary well. Consensus seems to be all the AC's say it's legal. My AC told me the same and then said HQ was pissed about my post and wanted me to remove it. 

 

It does not seem like everyone is 100% on the same page. I have now pinned all my GS's. 

 

This is disappointing but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 

 

I guess whenever we try to give feedback on IDPA rules we should also present some sort of "caveat emptor" caution such as:

 

" well, the current feedback from MY AC (which may differ from your AC or from HQ) is that as of this week (but it may change next week) is as follows: "

 

That really sucks.

 

Edited January 18 by ddc

[RePete]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 My AC told me the same and then said HQ was pissed about my post and wanted me to remove it. 

 

I hope that you did not!

 

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It does not seem like everyone is 100% on the same page. I have now pinned all my GS's. 

 

Are you surprised?  I'm certainly not.

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, RePete said:

 

I hope that you did not!

 

 

Are you surprised?  I'm certainly not.

I did not, and not surprised at all.

 

I know the thread pissed them off but it really helps to see what people across the country are seeing at matches. HQ doesn't like that because they know things aren't don't consistently.

[RePete]

10 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I did not, and not surprised at all.

 

I know the thread pissed them off but it really helps to see what people across the country are seeing at matches. HQ doesn't like that because they know things aren't don't consistently.

 

So true.

 

I believe that things were much better a year or two before the tiger teams.  That's when the game got FUBAR'ed.

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, RePete said:

 

So true.

 

I believe that things were much better a year or two before the tiger teams.  That's when the game got FUBAR'ed.

 

I like some of the changes, but back then things seemed way more stable. Now when I shoot a match the SO could be operating under a completely different understanding of the rules. 

 

[PCKLST]

I am still confused about this issue. Does the "not limited to" part of the rule specifically no longer apply to grip safeties?

8.1.7.4 Disconnecting or disabling of safety devices including (but not limited to):

I have a couple pistols with pinned gs that I would really like to use in IDPA but want to make sure that they are legal first. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[ddc]

1 hour ago, PCKLST said:

I am still confused about this issue. Does the "not limited to" part of the rule specifically no longer apply to grip safeties?

8.1.7.4 Disconnecting or disabling of safety devices including (but not limited to):

I have a couple pistols with pinned gs that I would really like to use in IDPA but want to make sure that they are legal first. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

My very unofficial feedback based upon this thread and a FB posting on the IDPA Members Only Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/220350371806106/permalink/1725320467975748/

and the fact that the grip safety is no longer mentioned in the current rulebook (but was in the previous book) is:

 

It appears there are at least two AC's who believe pinning is allowed. Based upon that FB discussion it would seem that most are in agreement. The hold-outs are pointing towards 8.1.7.4 and arguing that it should disallow pinning.

 

However @Racinready300ex post implies that for some reason HQ is not in favor? I don't understand how there can be such a disconnect between HQ and the AC's but it's IDPA so sure, why not.

 

When I got the email from my AC I assumed this was a done deal but now I'm not so sure.

Edited January 19 by ddc

[PCKLST]

Thanks for the info. I am going to reach out to my area AC to see what he says about it. The AR state championship is in April and might switch divisions if this is allowed. 

[Racinready300ex]

On 1/19/2024 at 3:32 PM, ddc said:

However @Racinready300ex post implies that for some reason HQ is not in favor? I don't understand how there can be such a disconnect between HQ and the AC's but it's IDPA so sure, why not.

 

When I got the email from my AC I assumed this was a done deal but now I'm not so sure.

 

I don't think the issue HQ has is with the rule, or what the AC's are saying. Their issue is with the discussion itself. IDPA says you're not supposed to go to the internet for rules questions. The proper thing to do is ask a SO, then MD, and move to AC after that. They say you can email HQ but they'll reply with contact your AC. I know because I've gotten that reply in the past to questions. Part of the issue with this thinking is where I live I can easily shoot matches under 3 different AC's so I need to contact all of them which seems silly. 

 

I think the issue with the discussion is that I pointed out if you read the rule it shouldn't be allowed. And it seems some are sticking to that even though AC's say it's okay. It all kind of makes IDPA look bad. I'm sure that's the reason they wanted me to delete that thread. The one you linked to is the one they wanted removed. 

 

I'm sure if IDPA see's this they'll be even less happy with me. 

[IHAVEGAS]

The IPSC shooter in Canada who fatally shot himself while attempting to recover his grip on his open gun and the s.o./r.o. who was killed when a competitor dropped his gun and the two people I have dq'd for forgetting to put their thumb safety on and the guy I watched darn near shoot his foot while holstering all come to mind. 

 

I'm not saying that a grip safety would have prevented every incident but I think they are a good idea. Using one did train me to get a more consistent grip which I thought was a competitive advantage. 

[Diver123]

IDPA is the most inconsistent sport when it comes to rules. With the BS at worlds to every sanctioned match. Letting JJ muzzle himself one year and file down a safety to fit in the box. I guarantee you that depending on what match you shoot you can get DQed for the grip safety. The AC's don't even talk to each other about the rules that get questioned. Having a letter from one doesn't mean jack to the AC who just upheld the DQ for pin grip safety. Its the top of this pyramid that is defunct. Refusal to fix anything in the rules and make them clear and concise with mysterious rulings across the country that only apply to that days match. Its a joke. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

The IPSC shooter in Canada who fatally shot himself while attempting to recover his grip on his open gun and the s.o./r.o. who was killed when a competitor dropped his gun and the two people I have dq'd for forgetting to put their thumb safety on and the guy I watched darn near shoot his foot while holstering all come to mind. 

 

I'm not saying that a grip safety would have prevented every incident but I think they are a good idea. Using one did train me to get a more consistent grip which I thought was a competitive advantage. 

 

The only one of those that sound like it might of changed the outcome is the guy trying to catch a dropped gun. Even then depends how he grabbed it. And most people say you shouldn't do that in the first place. And every gun with out a grip safety or thumb safety (most striker guns) will be more dangerous to try to catch. 

[RePete]

1 hour ago, Diver123 said:

IDPA is the most inconsistent sport when it comes to rules. With the BS at worlds to every sanctioned match. Letting JJ muzzle himself one year and file down a safety to fit in the box. I guarantee you that depending on what match you shoot you can get DQed for the grip safety. The AC's don't even talk to each other about the rules that get questioned. Having a letter from one doesn't mean jack to the AC who just upheld the DQ for pin grip safety. Its the top of this pyramid that is defunct. Refusal to fix anything in the rules and make them clear and concise with mysterious rulings across the country that only apply to that days match. Its a joke. 

 

The Dr, Instructor, CSO who lost control of his gun tried to catch it and that's when he shot himself.

 

He broke the cardinal rule, if the gun get loose let it go and not try to catch it.

 

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-man-dies-after-shooting-himself-during-kamloops-pistol-contest

Edited January 22 by RePete

[Buzzdraw]

In reference to IDPA 8.1.7.4, the grip safety on a 1911, when functionally fitted, blocks the sear (I mean bow of the trigger), not the hammer.  Effectively if the trigger can't move, nor can the sear rotate to release the hammer to fall.  No mention of a sear blocking requirement in current 8.1.7.4. 

 

Edited January 23 by Buzzdraw
Correction

[IHAVEGAS]

5 hours ago, Diver123 said:

IDPA is the most inconsistent sport when it comes to rules. With the BS at worlds to every sanctioned match. Letting JJ muzzle himself one year and file down a safety to fit in the box. I guarantee you that depending on what match you shoot you can get DQed for the grip safety. The AC's don't even talk to each other about the rules that get questioned. Having a letter from one doesn't mean jack to the AC who just upheld the DQ for pin grip safety. Its the top of this pyramid that is defunct. Refusal to fix anything in the rules and make them clear and concise with mysterious rulings across the country that only apply to that days match. Its a joke. 

 

I wanted to confirm that the magazine release that comes with a CZ Shadow 1 orange was legal in ESP before going to an IDPA major with it. So I read through the rules & then contacted the AC like you are supposed to. This is the answer I got: 

 

"As a group, ACs/SCs/IPOCs have stopped writing “Get out of jail free” cards like you requested because it backfired one too many times. Especially when doing this kind of review virtually during Covid." 

 

I found it humorous. I think the secret to enjoying IDPA is not to take it very seriously, but I feel a little bit that way about USPSA sometimes. 

 

[shred]

1 hour ago, Buzzdraw said:

In reference to IDPA 8.1.7.4, the grip safety on a 1911, when functionally fitted, blocks the sear, not the hammer.  No mention of a sear blocking requirement in current 8.1.7.4. 

 

Pretty sure the 1911 grip safety just blocks the trigger from moving, just like the Glock (and most every other striker pistol) trigger-dingus.

[Diver123]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I wanted to confirm that the magazine release that comes with a CZ Shadow 1 orange was legal in ESP before going to an IDPA major with it. So I read through the rules & then contacted the AC like you are supposed to. This is the answer I got: 

 

"As a group, ACs/SCs/IPOCs have stopped writing “Get out of jail free” cards like you requested because it backfired one too many times. Especially when doing this kind of review virtually during Covid." 

 

I found it humorous. I think the secret to enjoying IDPA is not to take it very seriously, but I feel a little bit that way about USPSA sometimes. 

 

It only becomes serious when you have spent your money and time traveling and get told you are shooting for no-score because suddenly today the gun magically isnt legal because its a different AC. 

[IHAVEGAS]

39 minutes ago, Diver123 said:

It only becomes serious when you have spent your money and time traveling and get told you are shooting for no-score because suddenly today the gun magically isnt legal because it’s  a different AC. 

I hear you, I agree that scenario would be very messed up , but for most of us it is still sort of a choice.
 

If you are shooting for fun and making memories with friends you have the option of saying ‘this is bull shirt, but I am going to have a good time anyway’. 
 

[deerslayer]

I wouldn't pin a grip safety.  The "but not limited to" wording in 8.1.7.4 allows an opening for an AC or MD to claim that pinning is not allowed.  I have no idea why IDPA dropped "grip safety" from their list of safety devices that can't be disabled or removed, unless it was to allow factory non-grip safety 1911s and 2011s (like say, arguably, an EDC X9).

Edited January 23 by deerslayer

[IHAVEGAS]

23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The only one of those that sound like it might of changed the outcome is the guy trying to catch a dropped gun.

 

Maybe. My intent was to point out that people drop and bobble guns and sometimes forget to apply the thumb safety. If you don't want the extra layer of protection or feel it only provides a false sense security that is your call.