IPSC Revolver Standard Division

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

They've been a number of discussions here (and suggestions arising therefrom), in respect of IPSC Revolver Standard Division, and I'd be grateful if the wheelgunners out there would comment on whether the following draft changes addresses all your needs without destroying the basic concept of the division (changes in bold):

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Appendix D5:

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence.

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components), produced by an OFM and available to the general public (except prototypes) is permitted.

18. Modifications such as weights or other devices to control and/or to reduce recoil are prohibited.

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

.... 19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder releases;

.... 19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length and weight is the same as the OFM standard;

.... 19.3 Cosmetic enhancements which do not give a competitive advantage (e.g. plating, checkering of frames, custom grips);

.... 19.4 Chamfering and/or modifications to the cylinder to accept “Moon Clips”.

.... 19.5 Replacement springs and modifications to enhance the operation of the trigger.

20. "Self-loading" revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

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+++ Above edited as suggested by Yoda +++

[Yoda]

18. Modifications such as weights or other devices to control and/or to reduce recoil (except "bull" barrels) are prohibited.

Note: The addition of "bull barrels" seems necessary otherwise we'd need to change 19.2 to say "provided the barrel length and weight is the same ...."

Vince,

you already know I support the additions listed in 19

How would you handle the Dan Wesson system, which is a combination of barrel and barrel shroud? These shrouds come in different set-ups and weights, and are even custom made. The same system is available (at least in Europe) for S&W revolvers. As a matter of fact I have a S&W 686 with the IBS (Interchangeable Barrel System) with three different shrouds for the same inner barrel. One of them does certainly not qualify for Standard Revolver Division (has a LARGE compensator), one of them certainly does qualify for Standard Revolver as it is the original barrel which slides over the inner barrel. The third one is a heavier shroud which could qualify as "Bull Barrel", depending of the definition.

IMO IPSC should go for the change in 19.2 "provided the barrel length and weight is the same..."

[spook]

Very good points, Vince. You have my support.

Good point about the barrel weight Kees. The "same lenght" rule always made me wonder when the bull barrels would show up. I guess they won't....

[Flexmoney]

Do you need to define "prototype"?

And, what about replacing the cylinder release?

[spook]

And, what about replacing the cylinder release?

Will this do?

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

.... 19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder releases;

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

Cylinder releases are already covered - see the last two words of 19.1.

As far as a definition of "prototype" is concerned, I've been struggling with this for a while. I know what it means in general terms and the different meaning I think is intended when applied to IPSC guns, but it's not so easy to draft a definition. Having said that, this is what I've come up with so far:

Prototype - a handgun where the major component parts (i.e. frame, slide & barrel) were not all designed and/or manufactured by the same OFM.

Hence, say, a Caspian slide on a Glock frame would qualify as a prototype under the above wording.

Frankly though, I'd rather kill off the word "prototype" in the rule above, where other issues arise due to "replacement barrels" being allowed, but I'm checking with The Big Kahuna to understand what we've historically meant with the word "prototype" (it was in Standard Division for many years), because I can't believe we intended the literal dictionary meaning to apply.

I'm so confused

[spook]

Vince, I can understand the confusion. Maybe it's easier to check what you would like to accomplish with a rule like this, and try to formulate a new rule from there?

[shred]

The classic "prototype" I remember is the front-sight-mounted-on-the-non-ported-hybrid-barrel. Of course all those components were "made" by the original OFM, so that definition wouldn't apply.

Then again in the 1911 world for example, finding the OFM is a question in and of itself. Ruger (Pine Tree), for example casts Caspian frames, which they'll machine and then sometimes stamp with somebody else's name. Who's the OFM? If a gunsmith puts together a pile of parts, must they use the same manufacturer?

I'd rather have a description-based definition-- if it's not stock or doesn't look & work like stock, its a prototype.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

I'm checking with our "old timers" to see what they meant by "prototype" in the days when that word was used in Standard and Modified Divisions. It may well be something as simple as "not in general production and/or not available to the general public", but I have this nagging feeling in my gut that there's a special IPSC meaning.

Then again, that might just be gas

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

As a follow up, here is the final draft proposal which is being considered right now as a Rule 11.8 Interpretation and, if approved, the changes will become effective as an "addendum" 7 days from when they're published on the IPSC website (points 16, 17, 18 & 20 are unchanged):

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

.... 19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder releases;

.... 19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length, weight and profile are the same as the OFM standard;

.... 19.3 Cosmetic enhancements which do not give a competitive advantage (e.g. plating, checkering of frames, custom grips);

.... 19.4 Chamfering and/or modifications to the cylinder to accept “Moon Clips”.

.... 19.5 Replacement springs and modifications to enhance the operation of the trigger.

As far as the word "prototype" is concerned, it looks like we're going to define it in a traditional sense as follows:

Prototype - A handgun which is not in mass production and/or not available to the general public.

I'll let y'all know if and when the above interpretations are confirmed.

[Patrick Sweeney]

As one of the long-time members of the secret, honorable and traditional band of IPSC shooters known as Victorian Era Rotary Launchers the brothers have informed me that your efforts are good and true, Cousin Vinnie.

Go with our blessing. And any word on a Revolver Open Division?

[shred]

.... 19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length, weight and profile are the same as the OFM standard;

one comment.. can we make this something like "an OFM standard"?

Otherwise say the S&W 666 with a 5" bbl is the IPSC revolver (just play along) and S&W sold them like that a few years ago, but now only sells 2" bbl versions. If for some reason the 5" is vastly more competitive than the 2", it would make sense to allow people to swap a 2" barrel for a 5" OFM-standard one (yes, I know it may be implied in the previous language, but it would be nice to be explicit)

[Detlef]

shred,

that's already important! I suggest to add a tolerance criterion, say

19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length and weight are within 3% of an OFM standard;

The same is a difficult to enforce animal, what if the chrono-stage scale shows a non OFM barrel is 10 g over the weight of the OFM barrel? What if it's 1 g over? Endless arguing will ensue unless a tolerance criterion is set! In fact, if you used precise enough scales, no two OFM barrels will weigh the same... Just avoid the same when measurements are involved (engineering 101).

I'd stay away from same profile altogether, for similar reasons.

--Detlef

[slughammer]

.... 19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length, weight and profile are the same as the OFM standard;

Why add profile? What is the advantage of a 6" barrel that has been slab sided if it is the same weight and length as a stock barrel?

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Forgive me, but I'm not one of those guys who buys a gun and then wants to change everything on it, so I'm not familiar with all the possibilities. The "profile" language was added because a couple of regular wheelgunners suggested that it would be the easiest way to avoid bull barrels. Also the general feedback I get is that nobody wants an "anything goes" approach, but there's demand for some flexibility (e.g. springs, trigger jobs etc.).

If you guys here can come up with a solution which wheelgunners unanimously accept, knock three times

I have absolutely no strong feelings on Revolver Standard Division (other than the 6 shot rule), so I rely on the advice I'm given before making recommendations.

Over to you. I'm watching and listening.

Patrick, I doubt we'll be seeing Revolver Open Division anytime soon, because the demand is just not there. However match organisers can easily recognise Top X Open Revolver shooters in Open Division if they wish, but of course their scores are affected by the majority of pistol shooters.

[shred]

Hmm.. off the top of my head, how about "Except for the previous exceptions (grips, hammers, sights, etc), must weigh within 4 oz (100g) and appear identical to an approved OFM model when viewed from the distance of three feet (1 meter)"