NRA Bianchi Cup

[NRAActionPistol]

Here is the current 2011 NRA Action Pistol Rulebook.

NRA Pistol Department

2011ActionPistolRules.pdf

Edited January 25, 2011 by NRAActionPistol

[gm iprod]

Tom,

Thank you, now we can see what we can get away with???

[Griz]

The progress on Production class rules is fantastic.

However, I recently sent a new shooter the link to the rules to answer an equipment question and got back a question about Open Modified... This tells me that the rule book as a whole needs some attention.

I just skimmed through a couple of sections and noticed a couple of things.

3.1.2 Open Modified Firearm

Open Modified is back?

The first time an individual earns Distinguished Points they will receive

the NRA Action Pistol “Excellence in Competition” Medal and a

certificate indicating the number of credit points earned. Each time

additional points are earned, a certificate will be issued.

I have not received or heard of anyone receiving this medal and certificates...

7.7 Barricade Event- ... All competitors may use the barricade for support.

No portion of the firearm may rest against the Barricade for Open

Modified, Metallic or Production Firearms Divisions.

I don't see any mention of the extra restrictions for Metallic/Production that were on the bulletin board at the Bianchi Cup last year, so is "grasping" the barricade allowed again at the Bianchi Cup like it is everywhere else?

Also, from nearly 2 years ago:

You requested input for the AP Rules Committee, so here's my "shopping list".

There is no provision specifically laid out for breaking ties on Falling Plates with a score of less than 480-48X (Rule 15.12) The wording should be changed to reflect some tie-breaking format for a less-than-48 score, perhaps more like the Ambidextrous Match tie-breaking rule 15.13.

There are 7 courses of fire in the book that don't specify "Start Position":

10.17- Los Alamitos uses a barricade at the 25 yd line and nowhere in the COF is a start position mentioned. Those of us who run that match "assume" that for all but that one stage the "starting position will be with the handgun holstered and both hands held shoulder high", and for the barricade stage it would match the regular Barricade event: "handgun holstered and the palms of both hands on the face of the barricade".

10.18: Flying M, 10.19: Moving Target Match, 10.20: International Rapid Fire Match, 10.21: Advanced Military Pistol Course, 10.26: Tyro Course Match and 10.29: Combat Event are all "stand and draw" events with no start position listed, so again, we "assume" the "starting position will be with the handgun holstered and both hands held shoulder high" would be used, but it's not specifically written, meaning it's pretty much left up to the people running the match. It could be anything from "surrender" to "hand on gun" so it does make a difference!

All 7 of those need a specific start position instead of leaving it up to the discretion of the Match Director or Range Officer running that particular event, especially when it's a Registered Match where National Records can be set.

Now to the Crawford Barricade event (10.28). The start position specified is one that could be nearly impossible to achieve with turning targets. It reads: "At the commence fire signal competitor must be standing in the shooting box with the palms of both hands centered on the face of the barricade directly in front of competitor's face, with handgun holstered." If the shooter is leaning out to look at the targets, the hands can't be "directly in front of competitor's face". Change the wording to match the regular Barricade that reads "The starting position will be with the handgun holstered and the palms of both hands on the face of the barricade." That would be much simpler.

Now to the ones that won't change but we can wish for: Get rid of the 2# trigger rule and the grip-safety requirement. That trigger-pull rule was instituted without a vote in the rules committee! Simply a statement by the Chairman that he wouldn't take anything less than 2# to the NRA Rules committee! A motion was made and seconded for a 1# trigger and NEVER VOTED ON!! 'Nuf said about that.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Griz

[NRAActionPistol]

3.1.2 Open Modified Firearm

Open Modified is back?

Never was deleted and or removed from the Rule Book, we did not have it at the Bianchi Cup because not enough people shoot it there, if more people support it, we will bring it back.

The first time an individual earns Distinguished Points they will receive

the NRA Action Pistol Excellence in Competition Medal and a

certificate indicating the number of credit points earned. Each time

additional points are earned, a certificate will be issued.

I have not received or heard of anyone receiving this medal and certificates...

"Points toward the Distinguished Badge may only be earned at NRA State Championships, Regionals and the National Championship.

c. Competitors may compete for points in only 2 State Championships, 1 Regional and the National Championship in any calendar year (1/1-12/31)" We can enfore this Rule instead, let the Majority speak and we will change it back.

.

7.7 Barricade Event- ... All competitors may use the barricade for support.

No portion of the firearm may rest against the Barricade for Open

Modified, Metallic or Production Firearms Divisions.

I don't see any mention of the extra restrictions for Metallic/Production that were on the bulletin board at the Bianchi Cup last year, so is "grasping" the barricade allowed again at the Bianchi Cup like it is everywhere else?

This will be up to the interpretation of the Chief Referee and the Match Director at the Tournament. The Committee does not want to get involved with how sponsors run matches. At the Bianchi Cup, (for safety reasons) it was determined that Production & Metallic can NOT lock onto the Barricade.

There is no provision specifically laid out for breaking ties on Falling Plates with a score of less than 480-48X (Rule 15.12) The wording should be changed to reflect some tie-breaking format for a less-than-48 score, perhaps more like the Ambidextrous Match tie-breaking rule 15.13.

No New National Records!

Edited February 3, 2011 by NRAActionPistol

[kimmbeckwith]

Tom: When I first received points in PPC I did receive a “Excellence in Competition Medal" but did not get one in Action Pistol.

[NRAActionPistol]

Tom: When I first received points in PPC I did receive a Excellence in Competition Medal" but did not get one in Action Pistol.

Kim,

We have you down for receiving your Distinguished Medal in 2001, I was hired here in Dec 2009, Tom was working at the White House, we can not answer for what happened before 2007. We have tried our best to give the Action Pistol community what they have asked for. We have created a new Division for anyone to be able to compete in NRA Action Pistol, we have given National Records and Distinguished Medals for that Division, to help with the growth we have awarded those Distinguished Medals to several Competitors who are on this Forum, and they know as well as we do that they were awarded on a excellerated schedule.

We will fix what we can, and we will make changes to help and assist the shooting sports with the help of competitors like you, but we can't fix what was broken 10 years ago.

NRA Pistol Department

Edited February 4, 2011 by NRAActionPistol

[Griz]

I don't care whether we get an “Excellence in Competition Medal" or not, and I don't care if we can grab the barricade or shoot Open Modified or not. I'm just pointing out that the rules say one thing and the NRA does something else... How hard can it be to change the rulebook to match what is actually done???

Also, I don't see any valid reason to run the national match by different rules than every other match. Just change the rule book to match the way things are done at the Bianchi Cup and it will make the sport a tiny bit less confusing and frustrating to prospective new shooters.

[NRAActionPistol]

How hard can it be to change the rulebook to match what is actually done???

Also, I don't see any valid reason to run the national match by different rules than every other match. Just change the rule book to match the way things are done at the Bianchi Cup and it will make the sport a tiny bit less confusing and frustrating to prospective new shooters.

Its plain & simple, the rule book states the rules put in place by the NRA, these rules are for the good of the (whole) sport, World-wide. The National Championship IS run by those rules. the Chief Referee will guarantee that any day, anytime.

The National Championship (Bianchi Cup) is a reflection on what goes on in the field, run by sponsors running matches. If we do not have competitors shooting a specific Firearn in the field, we will not have that firearm in the National Championship, the last time we recognised Open Modified at the Bianchi Cup we had less the (10) TEN competitors, that is at a National Championship. We will change that if there is more interest, but right now there is not. If anyone wants to offer incentives for competitors to shoot Open-Modified, we welcome it.

The National Championship will be run by the current 2011 NRA Action Pistol Rules, we can (and will) alter the Official Program to fit the needs of the shooters, and the sponsors that run matches across the United States & the World.

There should be no frustration, come and shoot a firearm that you have, on the same course of fire that was established 33 years ago, do your best and support the shooting sports, that's what we do here.

We will NO longer cater to any individual, location or group, all of our decisions will be made for the good of the sport, we hope you and everyone else will feel the same way.

NRA Pistol Department

[kimmbeckwith]

no I wasn't complaining! I was just saying that in PPC I did receive one. Lord knows I really don't need any more dust collectors.

Thanks

Kim

[mpolans]

How hard can it be to change the rulebook to match what is actually done???

Also, I don't see any valid reason to run the national match by different rules than every other match. Just change the rule book to match the way things are done at the Bianchi Cup and it will make the sport a tiny bit less confusing and frustrating to prospective new shooters.

Its plain & simple, the rule book states the rules put in place by the NRA, these rules are for the good of the (whole) sport, World-wide. The National Championship IS run by those rules. the Chief Referee will guarantee that any day, anytime.

The National Championship (Bianchi Cup) is a reflection on what goes on in the field, run by sponsors running matches. If we do not have competitors shooting a specific Firearn in the field, we will not have that firearm in the National Championship, the last time we recognised Open Modified at the Bianchi Cup we had less the (10) TEN competitors, that is at a National Championship. We will change that if there is more interest, but right now there is not. If anyone wants to offer incentives for competitors to shoot Open-Modified, we welcome it.

The National Championship will be run by the current 2011 NRA Action Pistol Rules, we can (and will) alter the Official Program to fit the needs of the shooters, and the sponsors that run matches across the United States & the World.

There should be no frustration, come and shoot a firearm that you have, on the same course of fire that was established 33 years ago, do your best and support the shooting sports, that's what we do here.

We will NO longer cater to any individual, location or group, all of our decisions will be made for the good of the sport, we hope you and everyone else will feel the same way.

NRA Pistol Department

I'm guessing Griz's frustration was less with the whole Open Modified bit that you addressed above, and more with the idea that of ad hoc "rules" being added about being able to grasp the barricade while shooting Metallic and/or Open Modified at a National Championship via match bulletin board. Currently, there's nothing in the rulebook prohibiting shooters in Metallic and Open Modified grasping the barricade, so long as the gun does not touch the barricade, but apparently in previous years, it was announced at the Bianchi Cup that this would be prohibited, supposedly for safety reasons. Some folks were upset that they had practiced for the match using a technique where they grasped the barricade only to be told at the last minute that they couldn't and questioned why it was "safe" to grasp the barricade when shooting Open but not Metallic.

Seems like the best thing to do would be to either change the rules to expressly prohibit them from grasping the barricade, or just let them grasp the barricade.

I'm a little curious about this part: "This will be up to the interpretation of the Chief Referee and the Match Director at the Tournament. The Committee does not want to get involved with how sponsors run matches."

Does the NRA run the National Championship (Bianchi Cup) or does the Green Valley Rifle & Pistol Club?

[Chuck Anderson]

I sent a list of suggestions to Tom Hughes last year after the Cup. Not sure if he got them since I never heard a peep, but one of the things I mentioned was the gun touching the barricade in Metallic and Production. I was told by several Bianchi Cup winners that the technique to use in Metallic and Production was to put the gun up against the barricade. When I asked about the rule prohibiting contact they told me there is no way for the RO to see and make the call. I'm not advocating doing this, and I didn't during the match, but if there is a rule and it's common knowledge that it can't be enforced, why have it?

On a related note. I have a really hard time with the attitude that gets thrown back from NRA on some of this stuff. Now they are not catering to one group. I haven't been shooting this long enough to have a clue what they are talking about. I have a little experience with being a rule maker for USPSA. I know that the vast majority of people on this forum have the best interest of whatever sport they are posting about in mind. I would hope the NRA would see that as well. Yes I know the format of the Rules Committee in NRA, yes I know that the folks from NRA posting here don't have a lot of say in those rules. But we're only trying to help.

[Action Pistolero]

Some folks were upset that they had practiced for the match using a technique where they grasped the barricade only to be told at the last minute that they couldn't and questioned why it was "safe" to grasp the barricade when shooting Open but not Metallic.

In Open we have finger stops and the finger is wrapped around the shroud or the barrel. Kind of impossible to wrap the finger around the barrel or slide in Metallic. That is unless you can see the front sight through your finger.

At the World match in '08, I talked to Jerry about how he was grasping the barricade shooting in Metallic. He explained that it could be done safely with an 8 3/8" revolver but not a 6". The incident occured 2 years ago during the nostalgia match. The shooter was using a 6" revolver with a finger very close to the muzzle. Since it was found before the main match they eliminated grasping. If it would have been noticed during the main match it would have been a different story.

I wouldn't suggest trying to rest the gun on the barricade in Metallic or Production. It can hit the barricade in recoil but that's it. Judy will catch you.