Penalty in lieu of requirement

[ivanhu]

Vince,

I know you've answered this question already, but I still don't understand. Maybe it's not just me, so let me ask it again in public.

10.2.11.1 says a minimum of one procedural penalty, up to a maximum penalty of 20% of the competitor's points “as shot” (rounded up to the nearest whole number), will be deducted. Then, we see an example where exactly 20% is deducted.

I have more questions about that.

Minimum of "one Procedural Penalty" - does it mean "procedure error"? If yes, then it's value is fixed: it's -10 points (10.1.2.) If not, then why that "minimum of one" clause was necessary? What would the "two procedural penalty" mean? Or three?

Now I guess it meant not to be "procedure error". In this case that "minimum of one" is rather confusing, and the rule should read instead "the procedural penalty, up to ..."

So far, so good - so go further. In the example given, the very last sentence ends by saying the special penalty is a deduction of 18 points. This, IMHO, emphasizing the fact that the penalty might actually be less than 20%, should say the special penalty is a deduction of no more than 18 points.

Also, the ceil is 20%, but what's the floor of the penalty? Minus one point will do? Or the zero also qualifies? Or that "minimum of one procedural penalty" actually means "minimum of one point"? Because in this case, the intended meaning would be easier to understand were it read as "a minimum of one point procedural penalty, up to ...".

If I'm wrong and it's "procedure error", then I'll have an other question.

[Skywalker]

Hi Ivan,

While Vince takes his after-lunch nap, I'll try to answer your question as far as my knowledge of the rules allow me.

The penalty you are referring to is not fixed. It is assessed by the RM, according to his judgement of how much you will gain from not fully complying with the stage requirements.

Let's make an example: at last Italian nationals, we had a stage where you had to start lying supine on the ground, then stand up and load your handgun at beep. One senior competitor (with a bad knee) requested to start standing, because he could have had serious plroblems (read injuries) if forced to stand up rapidly. The RM judged he could start standing, and assessed a -20% penalty on the actual points scored.

Now to the penalty: it is variable, as we have already stated; this means there is a lower limit, which is equal to a procedural penalty (-10 points), and a higher limit, which is -20% of the actual scored points. The RM will deem, according to his knowldge and understanding of the stage HF, what will be the actual penalty to assess.

Usually (for what I have seen), the RM assesses a -20% penalty not to deal with calculations on what could be the best HF of the stage, thus figuring out points and time, then speculating on how much time you could gain by not complying and so on...

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Fantastic. My young Jedi warrior friend has given you a perfect answer. Absolutely perfect. Skywalker, you earn another gold star on your report card

However allow me to expand further. In previous rulebooks, the "incapacity" penalty was fixed at "20% of the competitor's score as shot", but this was considered too inflexible, so the 2004 Edition rulebook nows give the RM a scale of penalties that he can apply, and this depends on the extent of the "advantage" versus the points available.

Consider a 32 round COF, where a maximum 160 points are available. The minimum incapacity penalty is one Procedural (-10 points), and the maximum penalty is "20% of the competitor's score as shot", namely 32 points if the competitor shoots all Alpha. However in this case, the RM can also order a "midway" incapacity penalty of two Procedurals (-20 points), if he thinks that would be more reasonable under the circumstances. Hence he has 3 choices.

On the other hand, consider a 16 round COF, where a maximum 80 points are available. The minimum incapacity penalty is still one Procedural (-10 points), but the maximum penalty of 20% "as shot" equates to 16 points, if the competitor shoots all Alpha, so there is no "midway" incapacity penalty, and the RM must decide between two choices.

I hope this helps to explain the revised rule.

[Skywalker]

Fantastic. My young Jedi warrior friend has given you a perfect answer. Absolutely perfect. Skywalker, you earn another gold star on your report card 

Thanks Vince,

this balances the latest nonsense I have posted regarding ricochets and deviated bullets.

[rhino]

Hey! A rule change I actually think is good!

It could make things a bit sticky on a classifier in USPSA, though. I wonder if it would be worth specifying specific penalties for each since they don't change, but an individual match director's opinion for a given situation might.

[Vince Pinto]

Rhino,

Yes, for classifier courses, the penalties (like everything else) must be standardised and published in the COF notes, although I doubt the "incapacity" penalty appears in any classifier COF, even under the old rules.

[rhino]

I think it probably should in some of them. For instance, "Off Balance Blast" is downright dangerous for me to try to shoot as per the course description. As it is, I'd have to risk everyone's life ( ) or take enough procedurals to zero my score.

Maybe I should talk to me Area Director about this!

[ivanhu]

So,

the penalty could be any multiple of the -10, but cannot exceed the 20% of the points actually shot. Thanks!

[Yoda]

the penalty could be any multiple of the -10, but cannot exceed the 20% of the points actually shot.

Hi Ivan,

no, the penalty can be either 20% of the points actually shot with a minimum of -10 points OR any multiple of -10 with a minimum of -10 points and not exceeding the 20% of the points actually shot.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

The minimum never varies from -10 points but the maximum varies upon the size of the COF and how many points the competitor earns.

Another way to look at it is minimum -10 points, maximum -32 points (in a 32 round stage where the competior shoots all Alpha).

[ivanhu]

The minimum never varies from -10 points but the maximum varies upon the size of the COF and how many points the competitor earns.

Which requirement is stronger? Suppose it's a short course (8 rounds minimum), should I deduct -8 or -10 points?

[Yoda]

Ivan,

minimum penalty is 1 procedural = -10 points.