Phil Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Does the So have to inform the shooter of cover before giving penalties? or is this only a courtesies for new shooters. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 It is at the SO's discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 I disagree. The S.O. is supposed to yell cover, and penalties should only apply if the shooter doesn't comply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 At my local clubs, it has always been done with a warning first and penalties afterward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 The rule book says the SO is supposed to yell COVER, then assess a penalty if the caution is not heeded, however it is at the discretion of the SO if that part of the stage is over quickly and/or there is not time to yell COVER before the shooter moves on. I have shot matches both ways, where the SO always called COVER and when they gave a penalty without saying anything at all due to time comstraints on that part of the stage. In all big matches I have shot it was not debatable if he assessed a penalty without calling COVER, so it was at the discretion of the SO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 tightloop *Quote* The rule book says the SO is supposed to yell COVER, then assess a penalty if the caution is not heeded, Would you please give the page and paragraph number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Page 33 rule 19... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 from the book: If in the opinion of the SO adequate cover is not being used (if the shooter does not have to move between target engagements, this is a strong indicator that adequate cover is NOT being used), the SO will yell COVER. If the competitor immediately moves to adequate cover, NO penalty will be assessed. If the competitor does NOT immediately move to adequate cover, a three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed. There is no leeway for discretion - the SO is obligated to "yell cover". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 correct...but if that part of the stage progresses too rapidly for the SO to yell cover, and the contestant was blatant about lack of cover, it is at the discretion of the SO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 The reason I ask I just took the SO class and the instructor said the SO need only call cover as a courtesy. I ask him again today so I know I didn't missunderstand him. After reading the rule its clear to me you must "yell cover," odd that he would teach otherwise. I will hereafter yell cover when needed. Thanks for the info. (Edited by the duck of death at 4:39 pm on Sep. 7, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted September 8, 2002 Share Posted September 8, 2002 Quote: from tightloop on 6:41 pm on Sep. 7, 2002 correct...but if that part of the stage progresses too rapidly for the SO to yell cover, and the contestant was blatant about lack of cover, it is at the discretion of the SO. If a contestant did that I would think it would be a FTDR ie. gaming the stage. 20 secs. otherwise the SO needs to yell "cover" first before accessing a three (3) second procedural penalty but if you have been shooting idpa for any lenght of time you will soon find out that every club has it's own set of rules...sad but true... sno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 8, 2002 Share Posted September 8, 2002 If you watch the expert and master shooters, they don't waste any time behind the cover to be used, lots of time it is just 2 or 4 shots and move on, many times there is no time for the SO to yell cover...so the penalty is assessed after the fact. It is not gaming to go as fast as you can, just be sure yu have 50% of your upper torso behind cover or you get the penalty. It is not a problem for all those shooters who want to get small behind a pebble in the road during the match, it can be problematic for those of us who are trying to win the match. Particularly if you have one of the infamous Range Nazis for an SO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter G Posted September 8, 2002 Share Posted September 8, 2002 That is correct Tightloop, but you left one important thing out the legs and feet must be 100% behind cover at all times from start to finish of barricade shooting. Failing to do this properly is not wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 The way I handle cover is to imagine there's a glass wall extending from the outer edge of the target to the side of the wall and beyond. Nothing of my lower body goes beyond the glass wall. As you're approaching the wall (both the glass one and the real one), LOOK at the point you want your lead foot to hit. This should be behind the glass wall. Your foot hits its mark, you come around the cover only as far as it takes to fire up the target, and then you're gone. This allows you to move fast while using cover so effectively there's no way the SO can ding you - because he shouldn't. (Edited by Duane Thomas at 7:50 pm on Oct. 8, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 Shooter G The barricade issue is pretty clear, we are discussing the issue of penalties and the SO yelling cover . I am referring to barrels, doorways, autos, ATM's, etc. Also understand that the barricade issue for the classifier is different than in a regular match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idpassr Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 This is one of those things that continues to amaze me. The SO should not have to call "COVER". If the SO has to make a cover call, the shooter is obligated to make a good faith effort to move behind cover. If the SO calls "COVER" and the shooter doesn't move or continues doing what they are doing, that's a penalty. Of course, if you are paying attention to what you are doing, you know when you are behind cover and so does the SO. Like anything, there are extenuating circumstances, like hearing and location. Asking about cover is getting just plain silly. I've lost count of the matches I've been to where some shooter has asked if WINDOW GLASS is cover. Personally, if you can shoot thru it, it ain't cover. GB Texas BRT Operator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 This is pretty basic stuff, so everybody bear with me while I bore you. The difference between COVER and CONCEALMENT (at least according to the United States Army, which thoughtfully provided me with employment for 10 years): Cover is anything you can hide behind that will stop the bullets your opponent might launch at you. Whether or not something is cover can vary depending on what your opponent is armed with. Cover from a 9mm is not necessarily cover from a .223. Concealment does not stop bullets, it simply hides you from the opponent. A perfect example of something that is concealment but not cover would be darkness. We would always prefer to have cover over concealment. However if we can't get cover, concealment is infinitely better than being visible in the open. It's not that concealment is going to stop bullets, but if your opponent can't see you, he might not be able to hit you. In general if you have cover you also have concealment. The only example I could imagine where you would have cover but no concealment would be bullet proof glass. However the reverse is not true: if you have concealment you don't have cover. In general, if someone is shooting at us, and there is something big and solid near to hand, would like to get behind it. Your third choice BTW after cover and concealment, in that order, is movement. If you're caught away from cover with nothing to hide you from the enemy, begin moving FAST laterally to your opponent, preferably while engaging them with return fire. If you can move fast enough, unless your opponent has an expert level of skill, it's highly unlikely they'll be able to hit you. Look at all the problems we IPSC guys have with movers - and we're better than 99.999999 percent of the people you could run into on the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Duane, cover in IDPA is anything they call it. Remember it is a game. BTW I friend of mine at the IDPA nat's last year got a PE on a cover issue went to the match director and he said that the rulebook is just a "guideline". How the heck do you argue with that? Anyway if you guys are interested, I just put together a couple of the stages from the IDPA nationals into a video clip. You can check it out at: MattBurkett.com Good luck with your shooting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 The original question was not what the difference was between cover & concealment but does the SO have to call cover before assessing a penalty? I understand cover is not the same thing as a safety violation but I did find an example of a SO having to Call a command before giving a penalty. "Any contestant moving with a loaded handgun in his hand but not actually firing will keep his finger out of the trigger guard unless engaging targets. If a SO observes a contestant moving with his finger in the trigger guard, he will sound off with the command "Finger". Failure to immediately comply will result in a 3-second procedural penalty. The BoD is discussing the change of this penalty to a FTDR, since safety issues simply can't be taken lightly." Rumor control has it that IDPA is re-writing the rule book and maybe they will address this along with a host of other questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I am not suggesting they make it look like the NY Yellow Pages, but it is not cutting the mustard like it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Its subjective due to course design and skill level! I am a low level CDP Master, but you'll play hell calling cover on me in a 2 shot tgt at 7-10yds! Try doing it on Matt or Robbie or any of the high level Master - Grand Master shooters and its an exercise in futility! You cant THINK fast enough to get the words out on any quick stage. I generally know when I am guilty, most other shooters do too. Its at the SO discretion! Larry P Its better to burn out...than to fade away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardboardkiller Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Just blame it on cross-dominance like I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 If you read what someone said about the IDPA Natl's and the SO telling the shooter the LGB was a guideline, then read what Larry1911 said, I go back to my first post on this topic. It is at the discretion of the SO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talon Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Did TGO get a PE for cover at the Nat's ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 11, 2002 Share Posted October 11, 2002 "Duane, cover in IDPA is anything they call it. Remember it is a game." Yeah, I know. I was just reacting to the "is glass cover?" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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