How do I call the shot?

[10ring]

Can any of you offer any tips on being able to call a shot? I think I experienced it once a few weeks ago but I can't seem to get that awareness back? Is there something I can do to be "into it"?

[EricW]

You'll start calling your shots about the same time you see muzzle flash. The reason you're not calling is because you're blinking. Everybody kind of gets past the issue in their own way, but you *have* to get past it if you're ever going to call your shots.

[PaulW]

EricW...your reply really got me thinking. I can't ever (except under dim lights, or at dusk) ever recall actually seeing the muzzle flash. I know I am calling my shots...am I blinking? I have never video taped or had someone watch me, I don't think I am blinking. But again I can't recall seeing the muzzle flash under normal conditions.

[ErikW]

PaulW, that may be because you always shoot a C-More and your focus is farther away, on the target. With an iron-sighted gun, I'll rarely see muzzle flash because I rarely encounter long targets that force a strong front sight focus. Shooting at 40 yards, I'll see sparks fly from the muzzle and the ejection port, and the brass leaving, and maybe the stainless barrel muzzle as it is unlocked for a few hundredths of a second.

[EricW]

EricW...your reply really got me thinking. I can't ever (except under dim lights, or at dusk) ever recall actually seeing the muzzle flash. I know I am calling my shots...am I blinking? I have never video taped or had someone watch me, I don't think I am blinking. But again I can't recall seeing the muzzle flash under normal conditions.

Paul,

You know what, I'm still wishy washy on it. The flash was *very* noticeable when I first shot my Limited gun after the long hiatus. Now I'm not seeing it, but I am seeing the sight, so I don't think I'm blinking. Shooting strong or weak hand I can see almost the entire sight arc, but no flash. The "missing" muzzle flash may be like auditory exclusion where your brain is just automatically excluding non-essential information.

If I switch guns, I see loads of flash. Which is weird, but when I decided to test fire my P32, all I saw was sparks, it was like 4th of July.

I also think Erik's on the money with the focal distance.

To conclude my babble, I think seeing the flash is kind of a stage you go through on the way to seeing the sights and calling shots. I've also experienced it as actually being able to watch the paper tear out of my targets as I shot them (about 12-15 yards).

[/utter nonsense mode]

[Flexmoney]

I am with Eric on the blinking, but I don't know that I ever see muzzle flash (that wasn't my training cue, but it might be for some).

You gotta see the front sight...that needs to be the goal. Nothing else matters (forget about the target).

[shred]

Don't we have a shot-calling FAQ? If not, we need one. J1B had some good stuff on it a while back that I'm currently too lazy to search for.

Muzzle flash is something that I also rarely see except at dusk or indoor ranges, while spectators get a great view of it much more often. Looking at it, it may be that the flash mostly occurs above my line of sight.

[eric nielsen]

Of the shooters at my club, most think that I have the least problem with blinking.

BUT, like EricW, I *notice* a lot more flash and sparks while shooting the .22 conversion. Even the bullets heading downrange (usually). Guessing my eyes & brain take in more info with the reduced noise & recoil.

For new shooters, muzzle flash is great. Find a powder that flames & use it. My $.02

[PaulW]

When I read your reply I was only trying to recall shooting an open gun, which is what I shoot most. But I was thinking about it and when I shoot my single stack or limited guns I do see more than my scoped gun. I notice smoke much more with a limited type gun than my open gun. I think that mainly has to do with what Eric said about visual focus. Limited the focus is more on the front site whereas a scope gun it is on the target.

[L9X25]

Another factor may be that the flames or flash may be above your field of view as the shooter. As a spectator you see flash but it is often well above the bore. When talking about the original limited hybrid guns, Wil Schuemann claimed that the flames did not become visible until several inches above the ports and would not interfere with your sight plane or view of the target.

I shoot a ported 9x25 and never see any flash during the daylight.

Leo

[PaulW]

Yea Leo, but you shoot with your eyes closed with that dang 9x25!! You have to or your eyes would pop out!

[10ring]

I have worked hard on curing a flinch and blinking over the last 1+ years. At the present time I think I keep my eyes open while I'm shooting but I wouldn't bet the farm on that statement. I typically don't see a flash when shooting my Limited gun but I do see brass leaving the slide. It seems like I need to open up my awareness somehow so I can take in what's going on?

[mcoliver]

I can't remember who posted the tip but I think it was Phil S. He said a lot but what I remember is in your dry fire sessions, point the gun on a white wall. Break your wrist so you can simulate how the gun would look like during recoil. I did this for a couple of days dry firing and after a few range sessions, I realized I was already seeing the sights lift and recover just like in the dry fire sessions. Try it, maybe it'll work for you, too.

[Jasonub]

if you see your sights lift out of the notch or your dot lift from the target then you called the shot

[Ross Carter]

With a Jeff Foxworthy voice.

When all the holes in the target are exactly where you thought they would be........you might have called them.

[benos]

That's deep... and brilliant.

be

[Dalmas]

With a Jeff Foxworthy voice.

When all the holes in the target are exactly where you thought they would be........you might have called them.

What do you concider a called shot?

My history is in bullsye and there I fairly accuratly call how many points I shot. I'm can almost always call / feel a bullseye shot. And I think its a combination of seeing and feeling. For me all shooting is built alot on feeling, I can feel the perfect shot before I can call it, that is easier in bullseye than full speed IPSC but I still think it's important. The same is in golf, if I hit a 280 yard drive down the middle of the fairway I have felt it before I've seen it, and it's a wonderful feeling of nothing.

Slight drift there backt to my question. A classic target at 15 yards, what is a called shot. A-zone? botton right corner of the a-zone? a hole in the target?

I'm personally working on A-zone or not A-zone, and when the feeling is there so are the two holes.

[EricW]

I played with this some more tonight shooting groups. I definitely see the muzzle flash still. I see just a miniscule portion of the sight lifting before my slide accelerates to mach 6 and the sight dissapears. (I cannot wait until the SVI Hybrid Limited gun hits 500 sold. That's gonna be a hot setup.) I can see brass ejecting and sparks coming out of the ejection port depending on my focus.

And if I shoot groups long enough...I end up not seeing squat. 100 rounds and I'm done. After that eye fatigue sets in. I think this is where some people are getting burned. Work on this at the *beginning* of a session or after you've let your eyes rest a while. Like 30 minutes or more.

[bTW, don't even bother trying to work on this indoors with lead bullets. It don't work. All you see is a white sheet covering the target each time the gun goes off. Outdoors you'll have enough light to see through the smoke, but not inside.]

[Flexmoney]

Swede,

I think the answer to your question lies in what you were aiming at...

Your "call" will likely be as tight or loose as the visual acceptance that you allowed yourself when you fired the shot...within the mechanical accuracy limits of your equipment.

[bigsaxdog]

been playing around w/ loads for my .45. after reading the benos book, was concerned that i didn't see muzzle flash. was using 230gr. LRN's and 3.9 clays. tried 185gr. LSWC's and 5.95 of HP-38, saw alotta flash. moral of the story: slower powders, you see more flash.........

[benos]

The greatest misconception regarding calling is - before the shot fires, the intended target and "your call" have something to do with each other.

Calling means knowing exactly where the shot went at the instant if fired, which may not necessarily have anything to do with where the shot landed. Of course in most cases it does, but imagine – you’re reading perfect alignment tracking in the bottom third of the A zone on a (non-disappearing) drop-turner… but at the instant the gun fires the target turned away. Now what do you need to know?

The reason I’m so particular on this is that your success is determined by your approach. If you’re overly concerned about where you want the shot to go, you won’t have enough attention left over to know where it actually went.

Your call, each and every shot, each and every time, is an interpretation – based on everything you saw or didn’t see at the instant the gun fired.

To be successful you must master this art in any situation – from when everything is dead still, to when everything is in motion.

be

[10ring]

I can sense what Brian is suggesting here. Does anyone have any drills or suggestions on how to get to this point? It almost seems like a person "has it" or "doesn't have it". Is there anyone here that can say they overcame this hurdle by doing something? I've had to work hard at developing the skill level I'm at now and fully expect to have to work hard to overcome this next trouble-spot. But, right now I don't know how to go about fixing this.

[Dalmas]

Shooting becomes more complex and interesting ( and frustrating) everytime you visit the masters on this site.

benos - Your post really made me understand my own post, thx.

[snokid]

I used to be able to call my shots, I took a break from shooting sorta and now I'm working on getting back to it.

But how I first was able to call my shots, I would do bill drills over and over again, sometimes not even drawing the gun as I tought it was a distraction to the focus I was trying to give my sights, I was and am now blinking as the gun was going off, but if you shoot fast enough you can't or I should say that I can't blink with each shot, and then for me anyways once it clicked I was able to do it almost all the time, mainly because of the bill drills.

Bob

[Unleashed]

I feel that I have to add my $.02 here after having an amazing day of shooting yesterday. I was at a steel match that one of the local clubs put on. At the match was one of the local GM's Larry Brown. I had started picking his brain on a few techniques (grip, shot calling, etc.). After I fumbled through the first stage (each stage being shot 5 times, with the worst time thrown out), Larry offered me some much needed advice. He said I wasn't completing my shot. I knew that I was getting sight alignment and the shot looked good when the sights started to lift, but I would still miss. I would also start to transition, thinking that I had a good shot. This took up a great deal of time, having to come back to the target. All Larry told me to do was watch the sites come back after recoil. Now this sounded to me like it would take some time, but he said the slide cycles at around .05 to .06 seconds. So, instead of calling the shot off of sight lift, I need to call it on sight return. I compare it too follow through on a golf swing (even though I don't golf!). I just wasn't seeing the whole picture, only half of it. So, on the next stage, I used this technique and decided that I wasn't going to do anything else but watch the sights "lift and return". It was amazing! I shot faster, missed only twice (out of 25 shots on steel) and didn't try to transition after the miss, because I knew it was a miss when my sights came down and they weren't on the target. Throughout the rest of the match, I was much more consistent and I always knew exactly where my miss went. It seemed like I was shooting in slow motion, but when I compared my times with other shooters that looked like they were blazing through the stage, I was faster. With just that single piece of advice, I was seeing 100% more than I was before. I had been struggling for 2 years, hitting that "B" class wall. Thinking that I was calling the shot becuase I saw the sights start to lift in the right place and getting frustrated because I was missing. Well, I tried to keep this short but I think it is a subject that requires a great deal of discussion, and I am just beginning to learn it. I am very fortunate that Larry was there and took the time to help me because I feel like that was my biggest obstacle in becoming a better shooter.

Edwin