kdmoore Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I noticed that this was discussed in the IPSC forum, but no discussion here yet. I have only shot IDPA for a couple of years. How long has the 10 round mag rule been in place? Any hope that the capacity will change? Seems like some will still be limited by state law, but for the vast majority of shooters standard mags could be very affordable. I've heard griping about how stages are revolver unfriendly, CDP unfriendly, etc, etc. Now will we get to hear ... Stage X was really set up for 15 rounders, but Stage Y allowed more timely reloads for the 13 rounders? Anyone know if the rules committee has hashed this thru yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I don't see why it would change. As far as the stages being "unfriendly" to revolver and/or CDP shooters, they don't compete against SSP and ESP shooters, that's why there are seperate classes. If you shoot a 20 round stage with CDP, you will have to make two mag changes, because of the 8 round limit in CDP, but, everybody else in CDP also has to make the same mag changes, because of the 8 round limit in CDP. Does that help answer your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I don't think it would/should change either. One of the principles of IDPA is the idea that it is not an equipment race. The problem with hi-caps (just as RH45 said) are that they are different gun-to-gun, caliber-to-caliber. If they all held the same number (i.e. 15) then it probably wouldn't matter. Guns that didn't hold the max would suddenly be non-competitive, so you would be forced to buy another gun - defacto equipment race. The other option would be to create a more divisions (ssp hi-cap, ssp low-cap), which could get ugly & confusing. We have a little bit of this in CDP now with the 7 rd/8rd decision. With an 8 rd (9 total) you often end up having to come off of a target to reload. Then you have to reengage, and remember how many rounds are still needed... Lots of opportunty to screw up. So 7s (8 total) often are better. Occasionally there is a stage that where needing that 1 extra round means you have to reload. You're out of the running with your buddy who was shooting 8s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Since IDPA is supposed to be with carry equipment why not allow the guns to be loaded to full capacity. If you choose a 17 shot gun for CCW and somebody else picks a 12 shot gun then it is a choice they made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Makes sense to me. But then, that would make choosing your equipment an important part of match strategy - just like real life. Can't have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Duane is right again. We could end up with hot ranges and people carrying more than one gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 AAHH! sounds like "selective reality"! Opps that wasnt PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 While it could be much worse, we already have an equipment race. Rules will always lead to that. How many 8 shot pistols are used for SSP ie, sig 239? How many 5 shot revolvers do you see at the top? The 10 round limit gives more latitude, but it does keep some guns from being competitive. I got to admit, opening up capacity would pave the road for major, minor scoring, as the 9mm would gain yet another advantage. I guess if you are going to artificially set a limit to capacity, 10+1 is as good as any, as it allows the double stack .40 to compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryfox Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I download my standard caps. to 10+1 now. I hope the crime bill goes away as it does not help anyone from being a crime victim. I don't think IDPA will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 It's an interesting problem. How many people who carry 1911 .45 ACP guns carry on them more than 22 or 25 rounds total daily? The 18 round limit will almost have to stand if IDPA is to remain balanced. What do you do? Design defensive shooting scenarios around SSP and ESP guns with high caps in mind and forget about the single stack and revolver shooters? Off the top of my head I can't think of any defensive shooting where the defender used more than 3 magazines much less 3 high cap magazines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Since IDPA is supposed to be with carry equipment why not allow the guns to be loaded to full capacity. If you choose a 17 shot gun for CCW and somebody else picks a 12 shot gun then it is a choice they made. Hey Chris long time no see. Been hiding from the cold?? In response to this, do you now start recognizing power factor? The reason one may choose to carry 12 rounds instead of 17 is those 12 rounds may have more umph. Seriously, I wonder how many people compete with what they carry? I've done the next best thing, making them as close as possible. Carry Beretta Compact, compete with Beretta Full size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 It's an interesting problem. How many people who carry 1911 .45 ACP guns carry on them more than 22 or 25 rounds total daily? The 18 round limit will almost have to stand if IDPA is to remain balanced. What do you do? Design defensive shooting scenarios around SSP and ESP guns with high caps in mind and forget about the single stack and revolver shooters? Off the top of my head I can't think of any defensive shooting where the defender used more than 3 magazines much less 3 high cap magazines. I find VERY few LEO or CCW defensive shootings were anyone ever even reloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Bucky, Yep, too damn cold to shoot. That and I just transfered stations so trying to break the new Sgt. in on the shooting schedule slowly. I'll be at Topton next weekend. Let's face it the 18 round limit is a joke and was designed around the revolver. Even a 1911 and 2 spare 7 rounders gives you 22. My 226 and a spare gives me 31. I'd bet that 50-75% of the IDPA shooters don't carry or are not allowed by their states lack of CCW. If IDPA is supposed to mirror real world as close as possible load up the mags and shoot. The courses can still be designed to be less than 18 rounds required. The full cap guys will just not have to reload as often. PF is an antiquated idea for FMJ's. Using the HP ammo out there today a solid hit with a 9 will drop them just as quick as a .45, a piss poor hit with a 50 BMG is still a piss poor hit. I've seen people survive hits with a .45 and others DRT from a .22. It doesn't matter what you hit them with it matters where you hit them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I'd bet that 50-75% of the IDPA shooters don't carry or are not allowed by their states lack of CCW. Maybe, maybe not. But it's not because they aren't allowed to have a CCW. The majority of states issue them (34 I believe)90% of the people I shoot IDPA with carry. YMMV. If IDPA is supposed to mirror real world as close as possible load up the mags and shoot. It's Guess you should read the front section of the LGB again regarding the purpose of IDPA. If you want to mirror real world, go shoot NTI or try Polite Society as they both try to do what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibber_Magee Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 You want changes? Can you spell USPSA? Perhaps video games... cost you a quarter and you get lots of shots without reloading. Without the equipment race in IPSC there wouldn't be an IDPA.. think about it. IDPA is what USPSA once was, which one would you rather have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted March 14, 2004 Author Share Posted March 14, 2004 "PF is an antiquated idea for FMJ's. " Or to make calibers that begin with .4 competitive. Or to prop up the 9x23 et al This is where the competitive vs real world argument blossoms. If we want real world, most strings are <5 so everyone is competitive! Except for me, then they'd have to include 10-15 rounds of "suppressive fire". But I digress into another thread.... Scenario, You are out in the wilderness primative camping in the in the woods 5 yards from your family who are in your pickup. BG is behind a tree. As you cross open, hit the steel plate(BG Tree) 5x , jump in pickup bed. Use tailgate as low cover, face rear, empty pistol into plate while RO shakes the truck (simulate driving away) oh wait, now the higher cap pistols have a disadvantage.... hmmm, take .5 seconds from your time for every plate hit. That's better Guessing we'd have to modify this for suburban set up, and for inner city ... whew. More serious content follows. I'd like to keep the 18 round limit and allow hi cap users not to reload. But I guess I'm coming around to the idea that reloads are a valuable pistol handling skill, even tho hi caps make it less and less likely. So I see the 10 round limit as a way to make the reloads happen more quickly. (As well as a way to level the playing field). I guess that's what sparked this thread. The sport was able to use the 10 round limit the AWB ban imposed as what would otherwise be an arbitrary number. It is a way to level the field. Now that the AWB goes away, should the field be artificially leveled? You open the can of worms up with ... If IDPA was to change and favor hi cap guns, do we encourage even more people to compete with what they do not carry. And, how many people compete with true carry gear anyways. Next up, Should we require all holsters to be IWB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Mayo, 32 % of the states don't have CCW and out of the ones that do I'll bet that most of the shooters don't carry regularly. (gun in the glove box of Jim bob's truck doesn't count) I deal with the public everyday and know who is carrying and who has a permit. I might get 2-5 a year. Go to the mall and take a look around and tell me how many you count that are packing? Better yet go in the summer and see. IPSC was actually started to find what the best gun/equipment was for a gun fight. Seems to me the whole idea was an equipment race from the get go! Just because the best gun for the job doesn't meet someone's idea of practical it is looked down on. My idea of practical is whatever gets my butt home alive and well at the end of the day! FM, Hell yeah I'll take IPSC any day. I go to shoot not stand around and be told where to reload and where to shoot from. IDPA for me is something to shoot when there isn't a real match close enough to shoot! KDM, I carry 24/7 and rarely use a IWB. Lots of good designs out there besides IWB. Some are even on the approved list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Chriss, You're entitled to your opinion. Thus my Your Mileage May Very comment. I'm glad I live in GA where there's no CCW/DOT records link and that the majority of the IDPA shooters I know actually carry. The point I make about the AWB is that opening the door to high cap mags, will force rules changes in IDPA. I cannot think of a way to do that other than to increase the ammo load out for single stack guns and revolvers and maintaining the current 3 magazine limit for double stacks. Considering that the new rule book is in the works now and near completion the point is probably moot anyway. I wonder what Vegas is putting the odds at for an extension to the AWB is anyway. I might bet the over/under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Mayo, It wouldn't require any rule change except for allowing the full cap mags. The course design dictates how much ammo and how many shots are required. You can keep the courses under 18 rounds and not have to change the spare ammo load out. The SSP and ESP guys will still carry 2 spare mags but have a boatload more ammo in them. Since there is no overall scoring only division it wouldn't make much of a difference. The classifier could stay the same also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 IDPA is what USPSA once was, which one would you rather have? Both, of course. Actually, I don't believe USPSA - even before USPSA existed, if we want to discuss the early "combat matches" - was ever like IDPA. The freestyle nature of the sport never had to operate under the restrictions the IDPA powers-that-be have - intentionally and for good reasons, by and large - placed on equipment and course design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I'd bet that 50-75% of the IDPA shooters don't carry or are not allowed by their states lack of CCW Chriss, I'm surprised. I thought most of the PA guys were carrying. Heck, that's one of the big reasons I moved here (that and no capacity restriction). PF is an antiquated idea for FMJ's. Using the HP ammo out there today a solid hit with a 9 will drop them just as quick as a .45, Ah yes, but you're talking about different ammo than what we're shooting in matches. My 130 PF 147 grain bullets I compete with are a far cry from the 115 grain Corbon at a 155 power factor that I carry. Hell yeah I'll take IPSC any day. I go to shoot not stand around and be told where to reload and where to shoot from. IDPA for me is something to shoot when there isn't a real match close enough to shoot! Actually, this is not a characteristic of IDPA but rather what many clubs tend to set up. A real good example of a free style IDPA match is the Northeast Championship run by Cortland. In fact, of all the matches I shot last year (and there were a lot) this was the most fun I had at any match, IPSC or IDPA. Yes, you still have to abide by the IDPA reload rules, but the corse description does not have to tell you when, where, how (though granted most clubs do). This is the way we are trying to run the Ready Aim Fire Match at Bristol, PA - second Monday of the Month. My final comment is it's a game. The thing I respect most about IDPA is the rules stability. For that reason alone, I'd like to see it stay 10 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizbang Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 If its supposed to mimick defensive shooting, Why should stages be "mag friendly" at all in IDPA??? Are the bad guys "mag friendly"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I've always wondered that, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Sure they are, You dump a mag full into them and the get a lot nicer to deal with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullautodave Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 And if we can convince them to let us use hicap mags, do you think they will encourage us to use HP Ammo something like 250 PF? Woouldn't that be more realistic? I don"t carry 165 PF LSWC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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