u can miss fast enough to win.

[twikster]

I've done so many times. It just depends on who else is at the match, how they are doing, what all is involved in the stage of fire. For instance, if I can react, draw, and fire a miss at 10 yds, in .70 second, and fire again ad hit in .20 second more, and your best draw and hit is 1.10 second, you can most definitely be beaten, even tho I miss with the the first shot. This applies to many things. I believe that I read that TGO once blew up his .38 Super at a match. Lots of people beat him that day, eh? So even a little thing can be your undoing, but oftentimes, especially in a long tournament, you can make several small errors and still win. In fact, that's why we set up tournaments to be long and involved. So the best man does win, and a little fluke thing doesn't let some B class guy beat everyone.

[Jman]

twikster. If I can remember I will re-read your post in the morning when, I hope, my cognitive skills have be restored.

Merry Christmas and Good Night !

Jim

[mildot1]

Explain just how that works with virginia count?

[CocoBolo]

This reminds me of my first major match standing in front of the results looking at my 4th page finish, I lamented about my 4 mikes, another shooter poited to his 1st page finsh about half way down and lamented about his 16 mikes. So faster shooters will miss but the guy on line one he was fast and got his hits. I'm a firm believer that you "See what you need to see and break the shot" any attempt to control the speed of your shooting is just anti productive either fast or slow, it is what it is.

Then there is my GM buddie that likes to say "The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss"!

You might be a hoser if "You think you can miss fast enough to win." CocoBolo 2010.

Edited December 24, 2010 by CocoBolo

[Joe4d]

misses hurt,,, I havent done the math lately but it seemed like on most USPSA field corses a point will come up to be real close to .1 to .2 of a second, at least at the c-b level. Say on a 10 target stage, shooter A shoots it clean in 15 seconds, 100 points/15 = 6.67 hf, shooter B gets a mike, he would have to shoot the stage in 12.5 seconds to get the same score. so an extra second or two faster really makes a difference. Getting mikes can mess you up getting alot of C's and D's isnt so bad and very minor compared to the time, hats just part of the game, USPSA more heavily favors time over points until you get to the M and GM classes, at that point these guys have squeezed about every nanosecond of movement efficiency out of there run and then points start weighing in again.

[Jman]

D V C

From the IPSC website. IPSC has the motto, D V C, that is to say, Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas, or accuracy, power and speed, and these three are indivisible in the concept of IPSC shooting. However, the ratio of accuracy, power and speed is up to the competitor. Since speed, accuracy, and power are of equal importance, a scoring system had to be devised that would take all of these factors into consideration.To balance speed and accuracy, Comstock scoring is used. Under Comstock the competitor's total target points are divided by elapsed time in order to arrive at the final score. This scoring method shows clearly that it is useless to be very fast, and miss the target. It gives full value for all center hits, and gives the more powerful pistol a scoring edge in hits that are off center.

Jim

[Merlin Orr]

As to the subject itself.... The first 15 or 20 times I saw it argued it was mildly interesting......

[Jake Di Vita]

If you are competing against people of similar skill level then No, you cannot miss fast enough to win.

If you are a GM shooting against C class shooters, you wouldn't even need to shoot all of the stages to win.

[AlamoShooter]

It depends on your definition of Winning I get beat at most matches buy shooters with misses.

I have not learned the skill of a willingness to miss.

[wide45]

It depends on your definition of Winning I get beat at most matches buy shooters with misses.

I have not learned the skill of a willingness to miss.

It is not willingness to miss, It's accepting what is.

[AlamoShooter]

It depends on your definition of Winning I get beat at most matches buy shooters with misses.

I have not learned the skill of a willingness to miss.

It is not willingness to miss, It's accepting what is.

Thats Deep ...Thanks it is something I can use , acceptance.... deep, very deep

You know thinking hard, that its something I did with some shots in Steel Challenge = I would accept a called shot all the way to the edge but wanted the center 1/2 on the stop plates.

Thanks again that will be my training plan for the next few months

Edited December 25, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[CJDOUBLETAP]

I think he is talking about steel challenge, where you can miss alot and still win. Misses don't matter in SC... as long as you make them up fast...

Its all about hitting the five plates in as little time possible. Simple right?

[Jake Di Vita]

Misses don't matter in SC... as long as you make them up fast...

I don't know for sure, but I'd bet all the WR setting runs were done with no extra shots.

[AlamoShooter]

Misses don't matter in SC... as long as you make them up fast...

I don't know for sure, but I'd bet all the WR setting runs were done with no extra shots.

I witnessed a few , and the ones I saw had no extra shots .

That is one of the cool things about SC = its not as a norm a game won on hope.

you can tell when the shooter hits the stop plate if he knows he hit the other four , his posture and ware he looks. sometimes they will ham it up on an edge hit ,but they knew it was a hit before the bullet hit the stop plate. sometimes it was hope

you can see the disapontment felt by everyone when a shooter eats a miss.

Edited December 25, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[dbltapipsc]

If you are competing against people of similar skill level then No, you cannot miss fast enough to win.

If you are a GM shooting against C class shooters, you wouldn't even need to shoot all of the stages to win.

I disagree. Nils did this at the Nats. He had several misses and still won the title as National Champ. He can truly miss fast enough to win!

[GentlemanJim]

Here at home..If I shoot a clean no miss or error match...I just may win HOA

put in one error or one miss...it just doesnt happen

In this game there are so many variables (other shooters) it may not be cut in stone, but generaly...you miss you lose

[Poppa Bear]

But what is a miss? The points are the same whether it is hitting hard cover or an out and out miss of the target entirely.

Our matches are generally determined by who missed the least, although some are determined by taking that extra shot because you knew you missed or hit the hard cover only to see 3 Alphas because the bullet hit right at the HC line.

[Jake Di Vita]

If you are competing against people of similar skill level then No, you cannot miss fast enough to win.

If you are a GM shooting against C class shooters, you wouldn't even need to shoot all of the stages to win.

I disagree. Nils did this at the Nats. He had several misses and still won the title as National Champ. He can truly miss fast enough to win!

I'd be interested in you emailing him to ask if shooting fast misses is what enabled him to win a championship.

Jim summed it up nicely.

[dbltapipsc]

I misunderstood your post jake. Im sure that Nils did not intentionally go out and miss just to shoot fast. However there are times when an unintentional miss at great speed will not hurt you in the long run. This is not my preferred method, just observations.

[Jake Di Vita]

However there are times when an unintentional miss at great speed will not hurt you in the long run.

But your score will always be better without the miss.

[Chills1994]

Man!

it's

going

to

be

a

long

winter!

[CHA-LEE]

twikster> You work on missing fast enough to win and I will work on shooting A's as fast as I can call my shots. Give it a season and we will see who comes out on top

When your competition base are B class shooters and below you might be able to get away with missing fast enough to win. But when a solid Master or GM shows up and shoots the stage faster than you and captures 95% of the stage points you will start second guessing your game plan when you compare hit factors.

[smokshwn]

However there are times when an unintentional miss at great speed will not hurt you in the long run.

But your score will always be better without the miss.

No one is arguing that had Nils not had penalties that his margin of victory would have been larger....however the premise from dbltapipsc's first post is still correct. Nils was fast enough to absorb the penalties and still win, which is contrary to the conventional wisdom on the subject.

As to how he felt about the misses...there is no need to email him...While shooting the match with him and celebrating afterwards the subject came up more than once, I don't recall a specific answer from him but he didn't seem concerned one way or the other by it

Edited December 26, 2010 by smokshwn

[Jake Di Vita]

What is interesting is that Nils was about 20 seconds faster on the match than 2nd place (91% of the points compared to 95%). He also shot an average hit factor of about 7.6. Being 20 seconds faster when the average second is worth 7 points is pretty amazing, yet he only won by 31 points.

I bet 9 out of 10 times, 9 Deltas, 6 Mikes, and 1 Noshoot does not win the match. But hey, just for the hell of it, let's compare to past Limited nats winners.

Ted 2009, 12 D's, no penalties

Travis 2008, 9 D's, 1 mike

Rob 2007, 3 D's, 2 no shoots

Unfortunately matches before 2007 did not have the match summary feature, but I suspect the results are much the same. While in this singular case he did "miss fast enough to win" (even though he still carried a 91% points average) as described by the OP, I think that's a good example of what not to do for 99% of the rest of you.

FWIW, if Todd shoots clean, he wins that match over Nils....while being over 20 seconds slower.

[Wild Gene]

No, and believe you me, I've tried.