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CZ 75 Shadow or STI Trojan 9mm?


ck1

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Trying to decide what's going to be my new 9mm and guess I could use some insight in case there's something I might not have considered... oh yeah, to work on the "Indian" more than the "Arrow" I've decided I'll be shooting the one I decide on for all of 2011 (excepting of course a some range trips here and there with whatever closely-related model smaller pistol from the respective companies becomes my EDC).

I'm down to 2 guns: the newly released CZ 75 Shadow (aka short-dustcover Shadow) OR STI Trojan 9mm.

FYI, I do not reload, due to my current living situation (young kids and no real space for a reloading bench set-up) I mostly tend to shoot lots and lots of cheap 9mm from wallymart (Federal Champion aka Blazer Brass 115gr or WWB 115gr). I know all about how 9mm in USPSA makes me shooting minor and am ok with that, but mostly I end up shooting IDPA anyways since usually the weekends USPSA matches are happening in my area (at the same range I tend to hit most IDPA matches, 45-60 min drive away), it means there's a closer IDPA match happening in a town right next to mine that's only 10 mins away (so due to having family-time I usually will end up doing that).

Here's the deal as far as my experiences with the two canidates: I know 9mm 1911's can be a PIA, I'm an SO and have been to enough matches and seen enough guys run them to where I've witnessed many (maybe too many) of their issues first-hand, that said, doesn't mean I still don't want one 'cause they do shoot like a dream when they run (and somehow deep-down I have myself convinced I might be able to get mine to run since maybe I'm special or something). I've owned and run a CZ SP-01 that I upgraded and brought up to "Shadow Spec", thing was flawless through 3000+rds with very little cleaning or attention, I did really well with it and only got rid of it as once I got curious and removed the Firing Pin Block I didn't want to ever put it back in ever again (cleans up the pull a hair, but makes the reset dramatically better/shorter than a "B" CZ), so I knew I'd have to just pony-up and get an honest-to-goodness Shadow (Shadows are born sans-FPB's so they're legal, otherwise I'd be breaking the rules).

The reason I don't already have a Shadow already is that the IDPA rules concerning them are "interesting" (annoying), you actually have to de-tune them somewhat and use crappy grips and such to get them to make weight to be legal, I'd prefer just to be able to shoot with whatever grips fit my hands or whatever else without feeling like a cheater or just not really using it to it's full potential like I'd like to use it, and due to some subjective/questionable logic from IDPA HQ making a Shadow work for IDPA can just be a chore.

FWIW, I consider either gun to be about equal in potential accuracy in my hands so that's a non-starter IMO (although the lock-up of the 1911 design may indeed have the edge even though SP-01's/Shadow's are freakishly accurate for a production gun). Both guns cost about the same, though the CZ is probably at least a $100-200 cheaper when getting a whole set-up together (but that's not really a concern).

So, here are some of the "Pros" and "Cons" I'm already considering, feel free to comment or add input as you see fit:

http://www.stiguns.com/guns/Trojan5.0/Trojan50.php

STI Trojan 9mm Pros -

No drama concerning it's legality, ESP in IDPA, SS minor in USPSA (but that's it).

HOLY AFTERMARKET! (I can change or customize it to my liking no problem, try different stuff to see what works best if I need to).

Trigger: shortest reset available on the planet.

Re-sale value (If I decide it's just not for me I won't lose a whole bunch and it'll take about 15-30 mins to get rid of it at a fair price in the benos classifieds).

If it runs it'll shoot flat-as-hell and be super accurate.

STI Trojan 9mm Cons -

It's a shorter 9mm in a longer .45's body which takes a design that already needs some TLC into high-maintenance relationship territory.

If Tripp mags don't work hopefully Wilson ETM's will, if they don't work hopefully Metalform's will, so on so forth, etc.

Vague trigger reset (this is really a non-issue since it's so short but there's no real "snap" upon reset like one gets with a Glock or something).

I'll need to I HAVE to get a magwell for $85-$120.

I'm going to break the ejector and need another one at some point.

http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowtsadablk.aspx

CZ 75 Shadow Pros -

Dubious legality at this point-in-time: Legal for IDPA ESP... maybe even for SSP too at some point, but waiting on USPSA Production approval.

Known quantity: I've got lots and lots of experience with Glocks, and IMHO CZ's are all-metal Glocks from Eastern Europe, reliable with a capital "R" and simple operation. I shot the crap out of my SP-01 and it just yawned at me, one-hole groups at 15 yards were routine without trying very hard.

Fast reloads, no magwell needed.

Mags work! While sometimes expensive, mag issues in CZ's are rare (I've never had any or witnessed any ever).

Trigger is as close to a nice-1911 as it gets with a "snappier" albiet ever so slightly longer reset that may work better for a recovering Glocker.

Low bore-axis, slide riding in the frame is a great design, the grip shape is also very awesome for getting under the beaver-tail and really controlling the guns.

CZ 75 Shadow Cons -

Dubious legality at this point-in-time: Legal for IDPA ESP... maybe even for SSP too at some point, but waiting on USPSA Production approval.

When it comes to aftermarket, if Angus doesn't make it at CZCustoms, then you are SOL.

Poorer resale maybe? Totally worth a fair price to those who know, but there are easily more guys who own at least 10+ 1911's than those who know CZ's who maybe have ever even shot one...

Ok, there's some more things to add, but you get the idea...

Just looking to get some opinions from some real shooters to hopefully make the best choice.

Oh, if you haven't shot both, please mention that, as it's very relevant as lots of guys just have no idea how good a Shadow or CZ with no FPB and competition hammer installed really is while many guys know lots and have lots of trigger-time when it comes to 1911's...

Thanks in advance.

Edited by ck1
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I have a Shadow Target and a Fusion 9mm, which is a customized version of the Trojan. In short, I think you really need to re-visit the utility of the next purchase. How much do you want this next gun to do?

I am a new shooter and want to quickly become competitive in both USPSA and IDPA -- probably more the former. Thus, I want a gun platform that I can use for both, which will yield the maximum range time. Every now and then, I will shoot the Fusion in IDPA ESP just for fun; however, I believe, if I want to flatten the learning curve and be competitive, I need to stick to one platform, CZ or other viable platforms (e.g. Glock, M&P). In short, I don't have any wisdom to share here. :blush:

For kicks, if you go with the new CZ 75 Shadow, you can always turn it into a single-action only gun, which will still allow you to shoot ESP and SS. My understanding of the SA only Shadow is that it can be very much 1911-like regarding its trigger performance. On the other hand, you cannot turn that Trojan into an SSP or Production eligible gun. Just my two pesos. Good luck on your decision.

FWIW -- I am thinking about getting a new CZ 75 Shadow.

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Justaute, thanks for your input.

I'll say this, I'm leaning towards the CZ due to it's utility, likely all I'll have to do is put bullets into it and shoot, while the 9mm 1911 will be a longer story most likely...

You bring up a good point too as part of me thinks jumping through the hoops to make 39ozs for IDPA SSP does bring the benefit of getting one a gun that can be run in both SSP and ESP without changing anything other than the starting position of the hammer on the first shot. Trigger-time = improvement, and that's really what I'm after.

No go for the CZ in single-stack as it's born a double-stack, but yes a SAO Shadow is scary good trigger-wise and is a definite option if I'm to just end up shooting ESP mostly, but it also has the side-effect of making one illegal for USPSA Production (gotta remain DA/SA)...

Leaning CZ but until the verdict is in on whether it's ESP only, SSP too and/or USPSA legal the Trojan 9 is still an option, thing is I've just seen so many people have issues with 9mm 1911's that I'm very weary... think I'm feeling out if it can be done, I've read lots of posts of guys claiming flawless performance with them, it's just that most 1911-guys will forgive/ignore a lot more than this guy (who's shot mostly boringly reliable G17's for the last couple years).

Edited by ck1
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I recently purchased both...

Trojan:

Willson mags appear to be full at 9 rounds (you can see brass at the bottom of the slot on the side of the mag) so you can't really tell just by looking if the mags have 9 or 10 rounds. They are very difficult to seat when loading 10+1. I've stopped using a "Barney" mag until mine break themselves in a little more. Usually I'll seat the mag with the slide open just to be sure. I'm going to order some Trip mags to if they solve these two issues while still being as reliable as the Wilsons.

It seems that most Trojan owners run an Aftec 9mm/38sc extractor. I've experienced a couple FTEs and I'll probably install an Aftec soon.

I disabled my grip safety because even after sensitizing it to the point of almost being useless, I couldn't get it to release 100% when doing Steel Challenge drills. This is a problem with my hand and not the gun. 1911 grip safeties seem to give me fits.

Great holster selection.

Shadow:

Possibly the most accurate gun I own.

Possibly the most picky on ammo. I needed to load very short (1.075") to get the slide into battery with 125gr HAP bullets. At 1.085" I could still feel the bullet dragging on the rifling when I drop tested the rounds in the barrel.

The gun doesn't feel as tight as the Trojan.

You are on your own for holsters. Angus suggested a CZ SA holster. Since Comp-Tac doesn't make many CZ holsters your only real source is Blade-Tech. The Blade Tech holster for my 85B actually fit better than the 75 SA. It seemed like the area around the trigger guard fit a little better with the 85 holster. Also the muzzle area on the 75SA holster is a little shallow. I'm pretty sure kydex holsters are all hand made so those two holsters may have been made from the same mold but came out a little different. I took a heat gun to the 75 SA holster and it now fits beautifully.

Edited by blind bat
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I would reconsider reloading if you're actually serious about shooting. I used to live in a tiny studio apartment and I still did my own loading. Especially if all you shoot is 9mm, you can find room for a smallish press.

BTW, my vote would be for the CZ, because although I love the 1911, and I just bought one in 9mm myself, it's just not competitive to shoot a single stack 9mm in USPSA.

Edited by twodownzero
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I recently purchased both...

blind bat, well, thanks for chiming in (and great taste in 9mm's), thanks for adding any info. Guess the first couple things I'll bother you about are: which do you think is easier to shoot well (totally subjective I know, but curious what your impressions are)?

Also, could you share a bit more info on how both seem to be running if you've noticed anything else or have any other observations?

Then finally, the obvious and obligatory in this case "If you could have only on which would it be"?

Thanks a lot as I'm not sure there are that many guys out there you have both (especially considering how new the SDC Shadow is).

I would reconsider reloading if you're actually serious about shooting. I used to live in a tiny studio apartment and I still did my own loading. Especially if all you shoot is 9mm, you can find room for a smallish press.

BTW, my vote would be for the CZ, because although I love the 1911, and I just bought one in 9mm myself, it's just not competitive to shoot a single stack 9mm in USPSA.

I hear you on the reloading-thing, it'll happen soon, but probably not this year (besides the space, I've got an 8-month old and 3 other kids ages 6-11, so time is short too, having time to dry-fire and/or practice, let alone make matches, is hard enough these days).

I'm not real concerned with where I'll fit in as far as USPSA is concerned right now as like I mentioned I don't have the oppurtunity to hit those matches as often as IDPA matches, I want to be able to play of course but how competitive I want to be is something for down the road, less than 3 years ago I'd never even held a real handgun, let alone shot one, so skills-wise I'm an SS classification in IDPA who should be able to make EX this year, but don't think I'll be storming through the ranks of USPSA for a while...

Already this thread has been helpful as it's got me re-thinking and re-considering my first option which is just to bite the bullet and get the original SP-01 Shadow and just deal with the nonsense of making weight for IDPA as that gives me a platform that can participate and be competitive in 3 divisions without having to wait on how any of the approvals come down with the new SDC Shadow. On the other hand, moving to the 1911-platform seems almost inevitable as 3 years from now you can pretty much bet on me having at least one 2011 and a 550B so who knows..? Thus why I'm confused...

Added a poll in case guys have an opinion on which to go with but don't feel like jumping into detail (though considering shear popularity I think the Trojan will end up on top regardless).

Edited by ck1
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I have a Shadow Custom full rail and it will never be 39ozs. It weighs 38ozs without any grips or magazine inserted.

I cant use it in IDPA at all.

Already this thread has been helpful as it's got me re-thinking and re-considering my first option which is just to bite the bullet and get the original SP-01 Shadow and just deal with the nonsense of making weight for IDPA.

Edited by Duke Nukem
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I have a Shadow Custom full rail and it will never be 39ozs. It weighs 38ozs without any grips or magazine inserted.

I cant use it in IDPA at all.

Already this thread has been helpful as it's got me re-thinking and re-considering my first option which is just to bite the bullet and get the original SP-01 Shadow and just deal with the nonsense of making weight for IDPA.

That seems like it shouldn't be so, my SP-01 with an empty 19rd mag and wearing VZ G10 grips and competition rear sight was 38ozs... You sure the scale you were using was tared out accurately?

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I have a Shadow Custom full rail and it will never be 39ozs. It weighs 38ozs without any grips or magazine inserted.

I cant use it in IDPA at all.

Already this thread has been helpful as it's got me re-thinking and re-considering my first option which is just to bite the bullet and get the original SP-01 Shadow and just deal with the nonsense of making weight for IDPA.

I like my Shadow Custom shop, I didn't know it was a problem in IDPA, well they won't let me shoot my open guns either, nor my Dawson HP Edge, no wonder I mostly shoot USPSA, AASA, and Steel, and one IDPA club went down this year for lack of attendance. I carry my Shadow Custom a lot, the bad guys don't know its to heavy! Heck they don't even like my single stack, I can't figure it out http://www.sashooter...p?g2_itemId=716.

I vote CZ Shadow.

Edited by CocoBolo
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Got to put about 150rds through a buddies Springfield Loaded 9mm 1911 today... had 5 or 6 malfs shooting 100 FMJ, just a bunch of issues with the box of 50 jhp. :(

Couple things are happening to me at this point as far as observations go: (1) I'm getting more and more pissed at some of the IDPA rules, as if it wasn't for a mere 1.5-2ozs putting it over legal weight I'd be done deliberating and be just shooting a Shadow, as it's an actual" working gun" that really gets issued to actual "operators/agencies", it not being legal in stock form is starting to seem more and more ludicrous as I look for a substitute. (2) Starting to feel like a 9mm 1911 can be made to run for sure as a game gun shooting FMJ... but a game gun only, 'cause from what i've been seeing, as far as I can tell, a 9mm 1911 being able to run both FMJ and JHP and pull double duty as a "working gun" that's good for SD, HD or anything besides competition just seems like a stretch.

I was leaning Trojan 9mm as there's a lot to like about a 9mm 1911, but that said, I got into competition shooting to sharpen up my skills for the real world and running a 9mm 1911 is starting to look as a "gamer" option only, I wouldn't carry one...

I dunno, waiting to see what the new Shadow gets cleared for competition-wise as in my eyes thus far, that's the one a guy could shoot comp's on weekends with and then still load it up with JHP to defend his home and family with as well...

Decisions, decisions...

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It doesn't take much to get the Trojan 9mm overweight for IDPA either. We had a 70 year old lady that they wouldn't let shoot her gun at the State match because it was overweight. She ended up using her daughter's 9mm Trojan for the match which has a single-side safety, and some knd of plastic magwell. :surprise:

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Fwiw, i purchased a used 9mm trojan of the forum classified , ordered some Tripp mags, the gun looked to be lnib upon arrival, took some federal fmj and wwb, and some federal hp for a total of about 300 rds, never had a problem. Own a Cz 75 b as well, nice gun no problems same thing everyone else has stated but i must say i love grabbing that 1911 when ever i open that gun safe if i am going to shoot 9mm, if you are going to goto a 2011 at some time you may consider, the fact that the 1911 use may be good training for the future;-). It's why i bought it, its a cheaper toy to shoot same safety and mag release,sights etc, nice change from my 2011 guns.

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Not trying to infer that I'm put off on the 9mm 1911 by any means, more just figuring out that it is what it is, a fun shooting platform that has it's advantages as well as it's drawbacks (that requires a fair amount of tlc in watching springs and mags).

The CZ's on the other hand just seem even more underrated to me now though, think just about anybody who knows a good pistol (even die-hard 1911-guys) would find newfound respect after a couple mags through a CZ with a competition hammer installed, it's really too bad that the newer SP and Shadow variants encounter their trouble with some of the IDPA rules as they are indeed true 9/40 duty weapons that have many of the same attributes and niceties of the .45 custom guns found in CDP...

Edited by ck1
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Have you checked out the 9mm STI Spartan thread? Pretty good reports so far: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=118056

Save money over the Trojan and put it towards a Dillon Square Deal B. (which you can lag to a piece of 2x6 and then clamp and unclamp it to your kitchen table)

I have seen the CZ mags fail (on Angus' gun, no less). He sited weak springs, as I recall.

A single-action CZ in 9mm has no great place to play in USPSA. The 9mm 1911 can make do in Single-Stack division.

Heck...buy them both. devil.gif

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Have you checked out the 9mm STI Spartan thread? Pretty good reports so far: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=118056

Save money over the Trojan and put it towards a Dillon Square Deal B. (which you can lag to a piece of 2x6 and then clamp and unclamp it to your kitchen table)

I have seen the CZ mags fail (on Angus' gun, no less). He sited weak springs, as I recall.

A single-action CZ in 9mm has no great place to play in USPSA. The 9mm 1911 can make do in Single-Stack division.

Heck...buy them both. devil.gif

That's not a bad idea Flex, you might have just changed my plan...

I actually priced it out, and a Spartan w/ a Dawson front sight, tricked out with an ambi-safety, S&A magwell, 3 good 10rd mags, new holster and dbl mag pouch, grips, and with springs and misc. comes in about equal-to or just-under what a base Trojan will run me: getting into kitchen-table-reloading or buying a good used CZ too would land me right about where I'd be after getting the Trojan into the form I'd want it anyhow...

Looks like I may have some more thinking to do...

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I have a CZ Custom Shadow and have shot some nice 1911 9mm. I think you need to find out what you really want the gun for before you can pic one.

You know, I've been thinking about that a lot and as much as I love the awesome-ness of a nice 1911 trigger and want to go that route, if I'm not also getting into reloading at the same time too, then I really think the 9mm 1911 will turn into more of a headache than I'm ready for and is pretty much out for now...

If I could control the OAL of the rounds I was shooting I'd probably do it, but shooting factory ammo it's just not going to work for me if I want to shoot the same gun for the whole year as besides finding the right mags and getting everything dialed-in just right, finding the magic OAL usually is the last part of the recipe to really getting them to run based on what I've been told by guys I know and trust who run them (that, and an Aftec extractor being pretty much a necessity).

Also, brings up another observation IMHO, if I can somehow manage to swing the expense and find the time and space to roll my own, then with the ammo-cost savings, why fight with getting a 9mm to run when I could just shoot a 1911 in .45ACP? ...as it's a heck of a lot less problematic and would actually have me shooting major in USPSA SS and be the same as a viable carry platform (I wouldn't carry a 9mm 1911).

If lots of practice is the goal, in my current situation, a gun that I can shoot in more divisions and that will run reliably and drama-free is the wiser choice, looks like for me that's a Shadow (can hit IDPA SSP, ESP and USPSA Production and even Limited minor). I'm kind of asking a lot, a gun that's near as bomb-proof as my old G17's just with some of the added trigger-goodness-mojo that I seem to benefit from, but I already know from first-hand experience that the CZ will deliver the goods, so think I'm going to go that route (which has been my first instinct all along).

So now it looks like I'm just waiting around to find out which version of the Shadow it'll be: new short-dustcover Shadow 75 or original SP-01 Shadow?

I really love the original Shadow, but for IDPA that means dealing with the added expense and nuisance of getting it to make weight (a chore I'll live with if I've got to), if the newer Shadow 75 gets approved for USPSA and hopefully IDPA SSP (should already be legal for IDPA ESP) then that'll be my choice for sure due to it's lighter weight (that said, since I guess I'll be waiting until at least the end of January post-ShotShow for those decisions to be made, my lack of patience may just end up having me ordering up an original Shadow anyhow, waiting sucks)...

Edited by ck1
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Other than the beavertail and different safety, why would you look at the short-cover Shadow over an 85 Combat, and sink the difference into the Dillon you know you need? :goof:

For what it's worth (and since you mentioned carry), I've shot the CZ PCR (the alloy-framed compact 9mm w/decocker) a LOT, and it's one of my favorite handguns ever. While I carry a commander-length 1911, I don't think you're giving up anything in reliability or accuracy by going with the CZ platform.

Unfortunately, I can't speak to direct experience with either of the guns you're considering, but in my own situation, I'm strongly looking at the CZ-85 Combat and the 75 Stainless as my next competition gun.

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Fwiw, i purchased a used 9mm trojan of the forum classified , ordered some Tripp mags, the gun looked to be lnib upon arrival, took some federal fmj and wwb, and some federal hp for a total of about 300 rds, never had a problem. Own a Cz 75 b as well, nice gun no problems same thing everyone else has stated but i must say i love grabbing that 1911 when ever i open that gun safe if i am going to shoot 9mm, if you are going to goto a 2011 at some time you may consider, the fact that the 1911 use may be good training for the future;-). It's why i bought it, its a cheaper toy to shoot same safety and mag release,sights etc, nice change from my 2011 guns.

geez I'm brain dead, I am talking about a 9mm SPARTAN ( I have a 40 trojan as well and got names confused), yes the spartan 0 problems, no mag issues etc no spring issues etc, matter fact cant say I ever seen a problem with any of my 1911 or 2011 guns that was not done by me...lol. its when we tinker we end up making them issues. But buying both guns does seem the best idea!

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Other than the beavertail and different safety, why would you look at the short-cover Shadow over an 85 Combat, and sink the difference into the Dillon you know you need? :goof:

That is something I'm considering... I never was a fan of CZ's before I picked one up that featured the higher beavertail (found on the SP-01', P-01's, 75 SA's, 75 Omega's, and think the 75 Limited Edition's), I always liked the way they fit in the hand but was never sold on how the "older-style" beavertail angled downward sort of into one's hand (I've got Med/Lrg hands), I'm going to have to pick up a "classic-framed" 75/85 and play with one a little nce more to see if the newer frame is as much of a make or break as I've been thinking it is.

Honestly, an 85 Combat is legal and makes weight and such without any issues whatsoever already, they're born without a FPB so after one installs a CZ-Customs competition hammer, it's GTG with the same trigger-awesome-ness as a Shadow, slap on some thinner/better grips ala the VZ G10's or Angus' AL grips and change out the sights and I might find myself real happy and in at maybe $300-400 below my Shadow budget. Going to have to check it out...

(considering aesthetics, I do far prefer the Shadows, but as I've heard said, choosing a gun on it looks is about as smart as choosing one based on how it tastes...)

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Other than the beavertail and different safety, why would you look at the short-cover Shadow over an 85 Combat, and sink the difference into the Dillon you know you need? :goof:

That is something I'm considering... I never was a fan of CZ's before I picked one up that featured the higher beavertail (found on the SP-01', P-01's, 75 SA's, 75 Omega's, and think the 75 Limited Edition's), I always liked the way they fit in the hand but was never sold on how the "older-style" beavertail angled downward sort of into one's hand (I've got Med/Lrg hands), I'm going to have to pick up a "classic-framed" 75/85 and play with one a little nce more to see if the newer frame is as much of a make or break as I've been thinking it is.

Honestly, an 85 Combat is legal and makes weight and such without any issues whatsoever already, they're born without a FPB so after one installs a CZ-Customs competition hammer, it's GTG with the same trigger-awesome-ness as a Shadow, slap on some thinner/better grips ala the VZ G10's or Angus' AL grips and change out the sights and I might find myself real happy and in at maybe $300-400 below my Shadow budget. Going to have to check it out...

(considering aesthetics, I do far prefer the Shadows, but as I've heard said, choosing a gun on it looks is about as smart as choosing one based on how it tastes...)

You and I are thinking exactly the same about this now.

For me, though - I'm a bit stuck on having a gun purely for range or "game" use other than a .22 - I carry everything I own at some point as long as it's reliable. I understand that I won't win any major competitions shooting a non-tricked out gun (well, it's possible...), but I'd rather have a gun that's reliable, accurate, and familiar on my hip for competition, training, and carry.

To that end, I'm swaying away from the 85C just because it DOESN'T have a FPB. I'd rather have the FPB in a carry gun than one without. I realize that limits how nice the trigger can be, but to paraphrase a friend of mine who was the '92 state revolver champ - "When was the last time you felt your trigger after the buzzer went off?" I'm like you, though - I do prefer the newer beavertail, which is why I'm looking at the stainless 75B's - they have ambi safeties and appear to all have the beavertail this year, plus a FPB. Whatever I get will either head to Matt Mink or Angus for some trigger work and most likely a hammer.

59B

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Other than the beavertail and different safety, why would you look at the short-cover Shadow over an 85 Combat, and sink the difference into the Dillon you know you need? :goof:

That is something I'm considering... I never was a fan of CZ's before I picked one up that featured the higher beavertail (found on the SP-01', P-01's, 75 SA's, 75 Omega's, and think the 75 Limited Edition's), I always liked the way they fit in the hand but was never sold on how the "older-style" beavertail angled downward sort of into one's hand (I've got Med/Lrg hands), I'm going to have to pick up a "classic-framed" 75/85 and play with one a little nce more to see if the newer frame is as much of a make or break as I've been thinking it is.

Honestly, an 85 Combat is legal and makes weight and such without any issues whatsoever already, they're born without a FPB so after one installs a CZ-Customs competition hammer, it's GTG with the same trigger-awesome-ness as a Shadow, slap on some thinner/better grips ala the VZ G10's or Angus' AL grips and change out the sights and I might find myself real happy and in at maybe $300-400 below my Shadow budget. Going to have to check it out...

(considering aesthetics, I do far prefer the Shadows, but as I've heard said, choosing a gun on it looks is about as smart as choosing one based on how it tastes...)

You and I are thinking exactly the same about this now.

For me, though - I'm a bit stuck on having a gun purely for range or "game" use other than a .22 - I carry everything I own at some point as long as it's reliable. I understand that I won't win any major competitions shooting a non-tricked out gun (well, it's possible...), but I'd rather have a gun that's reliable, accurate, and familiar on my hip for competition, training, and carry.

To that end, I'm swaying away from the 85C just because it DOESN'T have a FPB. I'd rather have the FPB in a carry gun than one without. I realize that limits how nice the trigger can be, but to paraphrase a friend of mine who was the '92 state revolver champ - "When was the last time you felt your trigger after the buzzer went off?" I'm like you, though - I do prefer the newer beavertail, which is why I'm looking at the stainless 75B's - they have ambi safeties and appear to all have the beavertail this year, plus a FPB. Whatever I get will either head to Matt Mink or Angus for some trigger work and most likely a hammer.

59B

Ahhh... the FPB is indeed a point of contention to some, I can say unequivocally, after spending lots of trigger time with both types, that I MUCH prefer the CZ trigger's with NO FPB in place (and YES, I DO notice the difference after the buzzer goes off). I know there are plenty of guys out there who consider the NO-FPB-guns somewhat less safe, but in actuality they're every bit as safe as any 70-series 1911 out there (probably/maybe 90% of all 1911's out there BTW), and short of dropping one of the NO-FPB-guns squarely onto the back of their hammers from pretty high up or with some fairly significant force, there really isn't anything to worry about. That said, while not having one in there makes the pull slightly cleaner/ighter, the trigger reset is less than half the distance and IMHO is a HUGE difference, even on the clock I can feel the difference big time... with a FPB-equipped CZ controlled pairs (aka "double-taps") are much more work and tend to be far more spread-out and eratic, with NOFPB guns they're tight and almost effort-less in comparison. Plus, on longer shots (say multiple poppers out around 20-25 yards or so) the reset you get with the FPB-equipped guns will upset your sight picture enough to where you pretty much have to reacquire your sight picture after transitioning to the next target, with NO-FPB it's much easier (and thus faster).

I ran a bunch of timed drills back-to-back both with and then without the FPB installed before I got rid of my tricked out custom SP-01... the difference in time was significant with a capitol "S" (so much so that I tore down the gun the next day and sold off the hop-up parts and gun as a NON-FPB is all I'm interested in now).

To each his own of course, but I'd push you towards giving the NON-FPB guns a longer look before you make up your mind, they really are much different animals.

Also, FWIW, installing the competition hammer and other goodies that you get from CZ-Customs by yourself is actually quite easy, unless you're totally un-mechanically inclined you can save a bunch by doing it yourself, installing the hammer and lighter hammer-spring, then stoning the sides of the hammer-strut-assembly smooth before install and maybe polishing up the sear is pretty much it, there's no need to be cutting any angles or anything that would take the job out of DIY territory IMO..

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  • 2 weeks later...

Guys, do me a favor and pretty much whoever has had experience running both 9mm 1911's and CZ's please share your thoughts... as I'm still trying to decide on which way to go.

I keep going back and forth as while I have indeed decided that getting a CZ to run reliably will be easier and is much less of a PIA, I'm still not convinced that's the best move to sink my money and training into as paying as much as $400+ over a garden variety "B-model" CZ just to get a NO-FPB-model does seem a little ridiculous... An STI 9mm 1911 has a certain amount of value that stays with the piece enabling one to get a fair amount out of it if one was to choose to go in a different direction and flip it to pick up something else down the road, while justifying the higher price-point on an upper echelon CZ is a harder thing to quantify and is really only going hold much of it's worth if it's going to end up going to another CZ-enthusiast.

I can really only afford to kick down around $1500 (+/- $150) or so for a whole set-up (mags and holsters too) if I want to still have enough in the tank to pick up as much ammo as I want to and still be able to travel and afford match fees and maybe a class or two this year (and still stay married ;))... so the value of what I get bang-for-the-buck-wise matters...

If dealing with the ups-and-downs of fighting with the 9mm 1911 is worth it over the long haul, then maybe that's a better move over spending my budget on something that's more of a niche platform that I'll just end up moving away from anyhow down the road...?

Edited by ck1
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I'm guessing you are willing to tinker if $400 extra for a competition gun is a big deal. Hopefully, that didn't come off as rude. I'm just trying to say my friends who don't like files, stones and dremels will pay a lot more for a gun they don't need to mess with...

My advice, if you want to go "cheap": Look for a used 85 or SA (unless you won't ever need the ambi safety). Most of the problems I've seen with CZs are either caused by the the extractor, ammo or slide stop (pretty much in that order). The adopted blaster a good field cleaning including the REMOVAL of the extractor. Feed it a couple hundred rounds to make sure everything is OK with your mags, load, etc. Then buy a Blade Tech holster, some Mec Gar mags, CZ comp hammer, fiber front sight and the stuff listed under http://czcustom.com/Re-Spring-Gun.aspx . Maybe pick up a extended firing pin, my CZ ran fine with the stock FP after all primers except Wolfs after a couple coils were cut off the firing pin spring. Follow the fluff and buff info on the CZ Forum sight, bend the mag break flat and put the gun back together. You are now read to rock.

If you really want a better reset you will need to tinker with the FBP but the CZ Competition hammer will do wonders for everything else. Angus could sell that thing for $200 and I'd still buy it. It's just that good.

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