JWK Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Not being a top shooter, I have never visited a prize table. The closest I came was the 2004 Florida Open; my friends dog passed away Sunday and we had to get home early. Listening to a few of the USPSA members recount past matches I get the impression that the prize tables were more bountiful in the past than they are today. Some people say there are more matches, so the support from industry and vendors is diluted. Some say vendors are reluctant because they are not being supported. They state "we were there for you before the internet" One vendor I spoke with is cutting his match schedule from 31 last year to 10 this year. He is going to start vending at the SASS and 3-Gun Matches. Has the internet turned the Match Vendors into a relic of the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Seems that a lot of vendors began dropping out around 1996 - 1997 when IDPA was formed. This is not to start a political debate, this vs. that, but a fact that some manufacturers decided to support IDPA over IPSC. In any case, having another sport to contribute too, even the manufacturers that don't take preference and contribute to both will have to divide their offerings between the two. As a comparison, I got the same prize for finishing 142nd in the 1997 Open Nationals that I did finishing 59th in 2001. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 I have been shooting USPSA/IPSC for almost 14 years and can tell you that prize tables have gradually diminished over the years. The strange part is that, while we often hear heated discussions about how the prizes are distributed, we seldom hear complaints about the prizes themselves. Many years ago a class winner would nearly be guaranteed a gun or other valuable prize. These days being a match winner (division winner) is no guarantee of anything. I understand that there are different types of matches and some are low fee trophy only matches (which I prefer) but other have fees well over $125 but have little, if anything, more than the less expensive matches. As long as people are willing to spend large match fees, without expecting a respectable prize table, the promoters will be glad to oblige them. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I have been shooting USPSA/IPSC for almost 14 years and can tell you that prize tables have gradually diminished over the years. The strange part is that, while we often hear heated discussions about how the prizes are distributed, we seldom hear complaints about the prizes themselves. Many years ago a class winner would nearly be guaranteed a gun or other valuable prize. These days being a match winner (division winner) is no guarantee of anything. I understand that there are different types of matches and some are low fee trophy only matches (which I prefer) but other have fees well over $125 but have little, if anything, more than the less expensive matches. As long as people are willing to spend large match fees, without expecting a respectable prize table, the promoters will be glad to oblige them. Leo Part of it might be the fact that we don't have much variety in the guns we use. Look at the last couple Front Sight issues dealing with what equipment was used at the Nationals. Overwhelmingly STI/SVI with some Paras and a few Glocks. With rules that perpetuate this, why would any other manufacturer want to support the sport? In the last 5-10 years, we've seen Colt, Smith & Wesson, Caspian, Springfield, and EAA all pretty much disappear from the sport in the U.S. Some of this might be due to the Asault Weapons Ban stifling development of any new high caps that aren't built around STI/SVI or Para mags, but not all of it. If we really care about more corporate sponsorship, better prize tables, etc., perhaps we should consider rules that promote a greater variety of firearms particularly in the Open category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I disagree...build a better gun and folks will switch. Internal locks, lawyer-proof triggers, and unnecessary safeties (Kimber Series II, anyone?) are the reasons I don't spend my money on new guns except from talented folks like Benny Hill, JP, and Bob Londrigan. I suspect that manufacturers see no reason to donate when they are already selling heaps of product (STI is now 14 weeks behind on full guns, BTW). I'm the Match Director for the upcoming Texas State 3-Gun (see the 3-Gun forum for match details, plug plug), and have been working on the prize table for months now. The responses, with the exception of folks I consider friends (like XS Sight Systems, STI, and a few others) has been either: 1. "We don't donate anything, nor do we do discounts, so there" 2. "Order whatever you want for 10% under retail" 3. "Here is a coupon for one item at dealer price" 4. "Really? You like our stuff? Have a stack of goodies!" Number one is the most common (figure 45 letters so far, out of 500 sent and 120 or so responses). Number two has been 20 out of the same 500. Number three has been 10 out of 500. Number four...well, lets just say I was amazed at the response when asking "non-traditional" manufacturers (flashlights, outdoor cooking gear, hiking gear, milspec web gear) to support the match. I have a very thick sponsor list of great folks, but the prize table is a tad eclectic. Dibs on the 15" cast iron fry pan...mmm...corn bread... But the Usual Suspects (the folks who made most of the firearms and firearm hillbilly-go-faster bits in my safe) had no interest. Not for stage sponsorship, not for match sponsorship, not even my standing offer to put their advertisements in the shooter bags in return for nothing at all. This is just a state championship, though, not an area championship or a national level championship. I know SVI puts on one heck of a deep prize table match, but that is about all I can think off offhand. I've only been playing this game since 2000, so I don't go back far at all. My local mentors in the game tell me that matches I attend (and win my class at) used to give pistols or at least frames out to all the class winners...in years past. Shok-buff city nowadays, though. Sigh. The Texas State Limited is on the only "class winners get a frame" match I know of any more, due to the determination and excellent work behind the scenes by Jimmy and Artie Mitchell (who make great cast lead bullets, too, BTW www.bulletworks.com ) Personally, I shoot to win. Second place is first loser, after all...but having the top dawg win a $500 pistol and everyone else gets a used spring bites. I'd rather shoot a $50 trophy-only match than a $125 "shok-buff" match Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Internal locks, lawyer-proof triggers, and unnecessary safeties (Kimber Series II, anyone?) are the reasons I don't spend my money on new guns except from talented folks like Benny Hill, JP, and Bob Londrigan. Bingo. There's the connundrum. IPSCers demand better quality. The wider gun market demands the elusive $500 1911 that actually runs. Ne'er the twain shall meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Guys, With respect......do you shoot to win a competitive challange or do you.....shoot to win an expensive prize ? The first I think. Whilst I totally agree a great prize makes the match and you walk away and really think "hell I earnt that" is the added bonus and is the icing on the cake as to why you do it. I have to say the answer for me is 'no'. At a certain club at comps I know the prize will be something I like and will appreciate if I do well and come top 5, and I am quite dissapointed if I come 1st at another club and the prize is rubbish as so often is the case, but it doesnt stop me wanting to be the best and win knowing that at the end of the day the prize will be less than I expect/ want. I have never shot at a comp where the prizes are so cool as a gun etc but although it might give me more incentive to win, I dont think it would detract if I came 2nd and got a fake metal plastic trophy - because I didnt enter for the prize but the competition. On the other hand if you know the prize table is worth making the effort for it might pick up your game, however its either full on or full off for me in a comp, so I even then I dont think it would make a difference. (I will add the clause that big money prizes are exempt from my argument !!) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 There is no doubt, prize tables today are not as good as they were in years past. The last "big" match I shot was about 2 years ago - and the only gun given away was a Smith .22. I can guess that the prizes I won for 5th through 2nd 8 years ago are better than a prize I would win at a match today if I won the total match. That is what it is. Delve into some of my first few posts and you'll see my issue with how we've supported companies that have supported us. I agree with Mike to some degree. Admittedly all of us in the sport are here only to compete. Noone is making any money here. I also feel like shooting should be like Golf. The majority of the people should play for the same reasons I do - its fun, social, challenging etc. etc. The greats, the really good ones, and the up-and-comers, should be able to make a living at it. Work really hard and go through the tough times, and see the reward. I loved shooting and I loved competing. I also knew that I could pick and choose matches so that I got to shoot a lot, compete against the best, and pick up a decent prize at the table . . . JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I guess I should clarify...I'm not complaining about the prize table situation...I don't shoot to win prizes (anyone that has seen me shoot will probably agree ) . And it could be a lot worse...for example, try motorcycle racing...nothing but trophies, with some contingency money after spending LOTS of money to race, and with some possibility of serious bodily injury or death! That said, if the prizes are going to be lean, I wish the entry fees would reflect it. From what I've heard, it seems the prize quantity/quality has decreased without any corresponding change in entry fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Mark is on the money here. He is a guy who shot this sport as a junior in Europe in the late 80s and early 90s and has shot in many parts of the US; he has seen the sport grow from Open/standard only to the multiple deivisions we have now. His experience has value. Q.What was the point of prize tables? A. To get competitors to use the donated prizes & thereby promote the company that donated the prize. Q. Who gets the worthwhile prizes today? A. Only the top shooters (Texas state limited excepeted). Q. WHere do the prizes go? Right to the USPSA classifieds, gunbroker.com, e-bay. Can anyone claim that that the current "prize table system" works? Works how? Please tell me how it benefits the sport, because I cannot see it. I am curious as to others' thoughts on this matter. Regards, C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 This sport was set up to be a trophy sport. The prize tables get smaller because the vendors have no way to track if their contributions are returning to them in the form of sales from the prople who won their prizes. You cannot blame them, and I suggest people forget altogether about prize tables. If that is why you go to any match, you are going for the wrong reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpty1 Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Just to interject....not all awards on a prize table are vendor merchandise donations. Some percentage of the available awards are purchased with competitor entry fee dollars. I think that's one reason there is an expectation that a decent prize table be available for those matches with higher entry fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I agree that you should not go to a match for the prize table. My question is: If we have 2 similar matches that each have 10 stages and both have "compensated RO's" but one has an $85 entry fee while the other has a $200 entry fee ... what is the additional $115 per shooter for? Should the shooter expect a bigger prize table for his $115 extra? Assuming 200 shooters at each match, where does the extra $23,000 go if not to the prize table?? (rhetorical question) If this were a Wendys, Burger King, McDonalds comparison, the high priced restaurant(s) would likely go out of business. Since there are not enough IPSC matches, in most areas, many people will pay whatever is demanded to shoot the matches within their geographic area. Leo (Well said Chris ... you beat me to the enter key) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Chris How about lowering the entry fee and shooting for the FAME which comes with winning the damn thing...I would rather have the FAME than a 4 leaf sear spring, or an extra set of Glockgrip pasties... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpty1 Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 tightloop...agree 100%. I'm of the mindset that it be done "right"....one way or the other. In other words, have a prize table and a damn good one, or lower the entry fee and do trophy only. Trying to do either or both, half-a$$ed is counter-productive...IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I'd rather shoot a $50 trophy-only match than a $125 "win a shok-buff" match After reading all the thoughtful, logical responses, I just wanted to add a "yeah!" Where does the extra $23k go? Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jef Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 This sport was set up to be a trophy sport. The prize tables get smaller because the vendors have no way to track if their contributions are returning to them in the form of sales from the prople who won their prizes. You cannot blame them, and I suggest people forget altogether about prize tables. If that is why you go to any match, you are going for the wrong reason... Mr. Sunshine Group: Classified Posts: 2881 Member No.: 2038 Joined: 22-July 02 I'm sorry, but I accumulated enough 2nd and 3rd trophies when I was new in this thing. When I moved I chunked them. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now