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Moving with a holstered handgun


billwright

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Whatever happened to the question about what the status of a loaded gun once its placed in the holster is, (1)when under the control of R/O,

(2)any time during the COF.

Do you get DQed if you move, thereby inadvertantly breaking 180?.

I think Vince was going to look into this but its been a while.

Bill

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A holstered gun cannot break the 180. Some start positions require that we face up range, but we load and make ready while facing down range. The act of turning and facing up range to assume the start position cannot lead to a match DQ.

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Bill,

I'm not sure I understand your question, so let me make a few statements:

1. A holstered gun can indeed break 90 degrees and cause you to get disqualified (e.g. after the start signal, you go prone with a holstered handgun - see 10.3.4 and 10.3.6).

2. A holster which allows the muzzle of a handgun (loaded or not) to point rearwards more than 1 meter (in any direction) while the competitor is standing relaxed is prohibited (see 5.3.6.4)

3. When drawing a loaded handgun it may not point rearwards more than a radius of 1 metre from the competitor's feet (see 10.3.8).

If I haven't answered your question, please clarify your question.

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Bill,

I'm not sure I understand your question, so let me make a few statements:

1. A holstered gun can indeed break 90 degrees and cause you to get disqualified (e.g. after the start signal, you go prone with a holstered handgun - see 10.3.4 and 10.3.6).

2. A holster which allows the muzzle of a handgun (loaded or not) to point rearwards more than 1 meter (in any direction) while the competitor is standing relaxed is prohibited (see 5.3.6.4)

3. When drawing a loaded handgun it may not point rearwards more than a radius of 1 metre from the competitor's feet (see 10.3.8).

If I haven't answered your question, please clarify your question.

5.3.6.4 does not result in a DQ. The RO cannot commence the COF if the competitor is in violation of this rule.

10.3.4, 10.3.6, and 10.3.8 only apply if the competitor draws or holsters the handgun.

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So in effect, a holstered gun can not point forward of 1 meter of the feet. In the event of an uprange facing start, you would have to be DQ'ed.

Has anyone, at any level match, seen the rules applied this way?

1. A holstered gun can indeed break 90 degrees and cause you to get disqualified (e.g. after the start signal, you go prone with a holstered handgun - see 10.3.4 and 10.3.6).

10.3.6 does not apply here.

I have never seen 10.3.4 applied while the gun was in the holster.

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A Course Of Fire (COF) commences with the, "Load And Make Ready", command.  Drawing the gun is not required to

result in a breaking of the 90 degree angle.  Rule 10.3.4 does indeed impose a D.Q. in such a case.

I guess I don't interpret 10.3.4 as you do.

During a COF, my loaded handgun is holstered. My holster has a slight muzzle forward cant to it (less than 1 meter beyond my feet). I'm positioning myself in the required start position, which has me facing up range. Have I broken the 180/90?

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Muser: 5.3.6.4 does not result in a DQ. The RO cannot commence the COF if the competitor is in violation of this rule.

Yes, I know, but who said it's a match DQ?

Muser: 10.3.4, 10.3.6, and 10.3.8 only apply if the competitor draws or holsters the handgun.

Where does Rule 10.3.4 mention drawing or holstering? If your muzzle points rearward anytime during a course of fire, you are disqualified, hence my "going prone with a holstered gun" example.

Muser: I guess I don't interpret 10.3.4 as you do.

No interpretation is necessary. The rule is abundantly clear when it says "If at anytime during a course of fire ..........".

Muser: During a COF, my loaded handgun is holstered. My holster has a slight muzzle forward cant to it (less than 1 meter beyond my feet). I'm positioning myself in the required start position, which has me facing up range. Have I broken the 180/90?

No. If your holster is legal under 5.3.6.4 you will only get a match DQ if Rule 10.3.4 applies.

Wide 45: 10.3.6 does not apply here.

I should have ampllified. Yes, 10.3.6 requires drawing or reholstering, but I wanted to point out that just going through a tunnel with a holstered gun during a course of fire will also invoke Rule 10.3.4.

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It would appear that you are ok up to the point that the buzzer goes and you move...if you leave the gun in the holster and run forward then at some point the simple act of moving must break the 180 and its allready been established that the 1m you had to load and draw in has gone once you moved into the course of fire.

If you decided (for ANY reason ) to stop and reholster during a COF does the 1m rule magically reapply itself or should the RO call stop, it seems that even if you got away with the reholstering the instant you moved theres a good chance of breaking 180, I suppose if a wasp had just flown up my nose I wouldnt care a hell of a lot but a reholster might be the safest course of action in some cases.

bill

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Wide 45: 10.3.6 does not apply here.

I should have ampllified. Yes, 10.3.6 requires drawing or reholstering, but I wanted to point out that just going through a tunnel with a holstered gun during a course of fire will also invoke Rule 10.3.4.

Why, if my gun never breaks 90 degrees?

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Vince: I should have ampllified. Yes, 10.3.6 requires drawing or reholstering, but I wanted to point out that just going through a tunnel with a holstered gun during a course of fire will also invoke Rule 10.3.4.

Muser: Why, if my gun never breaks 90 degrees?

Vince: Rule 10.3.4 does not limit the 90 degrees to a horizontal plane. During a course of fire (i.e. the time between "LAMR" and when you holster in response to "GC, HD, H"), your gun (whether it be loaded or unloaded), cannot point even an inch uprange except when drawing or reholstering (see Rule 10.3.8).

Therefore, unless the tunnels where you shoot enable you to walk through them without bending forward, or unless you can shimmy through them like a Cossack dancer, or unless you can progress through them on your knees while keeping your back upright, then your muzzle will point uprange.

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Vince: I should have ampllified. Yes, 10.3.6 requires drawing or reholstering, but I wanted to point out that just going through a tunnel with a holstered gun during a course of fire will also invoke Rule 10.3.4.

Muser: Why, if my gun never breaks 90 degrees?

Vince: Rule 10.3.4 does not limit the 90 degrees to a horizontal plane. During a course of fire (i.e. the time between "LAMR" and when you holster in response to "GC, HD, H"), your gun (whether it be loaded or unloaded), cannot point even an inch uprange except when drawing or reholstering (see Rule 10.3.8).

Therefore, unless the tunnels where you shoot enable you to walk through them without bending forward, or unless you can shimmy through them like a Cossack dancer, or unless you can progress through them on your knees while keeping your back upright, then your muzzle will point uprange.

Rats, you have discovered one of my hobbies...Cossack dancing.

Don't tell me there is a rule that prohibits dancing with a loaded gun!

So, while in the tunnel my muzzle points to the side berm, but not beyond the 90 degrees to the back berm. Am I still in violation of 10.3.4? I'm thinking of crab walking through the tunnel while keeping my muzzle pointed into the side berm at 80 degrees.

I guess my point is that you see the rule as absolute, and I see a number of exceptions that don't seem to violate the letter of the rule.

I'm still trying to figure out how 10.3.6 prohibits going through a tunnel with a holstered gun. The rule doesn't say that anywhere.

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Vince: Rule 10.3.4 does not limit the 90 degrees to a horizontal plane. During a course of fire (i.e. the time between "LAMR" and when you holster in response to "GC, HD, H"), your gun (whether it be loaded or unloaded), cannot point even an inch uprange except when drawing or reholstering (see Rule 10.3.8).

So if your stage was El Presidente, and this guy came to play, would you load him, and ask him to assume the starting position?

equipment.gif

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Vince: Rule 10.3.4 does not limit the 90 degrees to a horizontal plane. During a course of fire (i.e. the time between "LAMR" and when you holster in response to "GC, HD, H"), your gun (whether it be loaded or unloaded), cannot point even an inch uprange except when drawing or reholstering (see Rule 10.3.8).

So if your stage was El Presidente, and this guy came to play, would you load him, and ask him to assume the starting position?

equipment.gif

One inch, one meter, ah, what's the difference?

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Muser: So, while in the tunnel my muzzle points to the side berm, but not beyond the 90 degrees to the back berm. Am I still in violation of 10.3.4?

Vince: No.

Muser: I'm thinking of crab walking through the tunnel while keeping my muzzle pointed into the side berm at 80 degrees.

Vince: Have fun.

Muser: I guess my point is that you see the rule as absolute, and I see a number of exceptions that don't seem to violate the letter of the rule.

Vince: No. I read what it says, without adding or subtracting anything.

Muser: I'm still trying to figure out how 10.3.6 prohibits going through a tunnel with a holstered gun. The rule doesn't say that anywhere.

Vince: It doesn't, especially for someone as creative as a Cossack.

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1. A holstered gun can indeed break 90 degrees and cause you to get disqualified (e.g. after the start signal, you go prone with a holstered handgun - see 10.3.4 and 10.3.6).

Vince, I was checking the manual and would like to confirm. The keyword here is "after the start signal", right? So when you're still scoping out the stage and decided to get a feel of the prone position in the walk-through you don't get DQ'ed (with your empty gun facing uprange in your holster)?

Thanks.

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McOliver,

Actually the operative words of Rule 10.3.4 are "during a course of fire", which starts with "LAMR" and ends when you holster you gun after getting the "GC,HD,H" command.

Hence if you go prone during the walkthrough and your muzzle points uprange, we'd rather not see that, but it's not a DQ offence (unless your gun drops onto the ground and you grab it without RO authority and supervision - see 10.3.16).

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The keywords are, "Load And Make Ready". This command commences a, Course Of Fire. The Start signal is a part of

the,Course Of Fire, not commencement of the, Course Of Fire. If a match participant has not received the,

"Load And Make Ready" command for the stage in question, then the subject of disqualification is not applicable

because the, Course Of Fire has not commenced.

R. Sparks

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I am still a little foggy, If after the buzzer I move forward to a shooting position and dont draw the gun untill I get there, does the 1m circle come with me or did it stay behind at the LAMR position,

My interpretation is that I lost it when I moved,

If thats the case and consider my holster position is straight up and down then at some point I must have pointed it back.

If at some point in the COF I elected to holster my gun, would the 1m circle apply or would it be a DQ if it looked like it pointed back.

Bill

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BIll,

Let's break this up into two main sections:

1. Not During A COF:

a. Under Rule 5.3.6.4, the RO should not even give you the "LAMR" command if your holstered gun points beyond 1 metre from your feet in any direction while standing relaxed. However if you bend over to tie your shoe laces or if you go prone during a walkthrough and your holstered gun points uprange, we'd rather it didn't, but no problem if it does. The test is "while standing relaxed".

2. During A COF: (the time between "LAMR" and when you holster in response to "GC,HD,H")

a. Under Rule 10.3.4, if you allow the muzzle of your gun, loaded or unloaded, to break 90 degrees or point uprange at any time, you get a match DQ. Hence, even if you bend over to tie your shoe laces during a COF and your holstered gun points uprange beyond the 5.3.6.4 allowance, you're in breach of this rule. So, if you need to tie your shoe laces, don't do so during a COF!

b. Rule 10.3.8 recognises that during drawing and reholstering, it may be unavoidable to point the muzzle of your gun rearward, so you're given a 1 metre rearward allowance - note the operative word is rearward. So, in a COF where you must wait for the start signal while facing uprange, if you draw your gun while you're still facing uprange, this rule will not exempt you from the provisions of Rule 10.3.4, which will prevail.

c. Rule 10.3.6 merely adds emphasis to Rule 10.3.4. by presuming that any draw or reholstering while inside a tunnel will cause the muzzle of your gun to point uprange. Moreover, as I explained earlier, even if you holster before entering a tunnel, the muzzle of your gun will most likely point uprange while you're inside the tunnel, thereby putting you in breach of 10.3.4., so you better keep the gun in your hand, pointed in a safe direction.

d. Note that Rule 5.3.6.4 continues to apply during a COF. This means if after you load and holster, you turn to face uprange to await the start signal, your holstered gun still has a 1 metre radial allowance. However as soon as you draw, Rule 10.3.8 and/or 10.3.4 apply.

Hope this helps.

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