classified while frozen to death

[ThreeHeadedDog]

I shot the classifier today. The temp was in the mid 30's and there were flurries in the air. We actually had a barrel buring wood on a dolly we drug around to all the bays to huddle around.

My end result was a 106.56 with 61 pts down in SSP. My raw time was 76.06. I enjoyed shooting the classifier but my fingers were frozen. In the end I was really hoping to get master and frusterated that I didnt. This does give me a good idea of just how much different shooting in the cold is though.

[jlweems]

It was in the low 40s where I was shooting today. Had some wind as well. I can feel your pain.

[waktasz]

That is a lot of points down. Slow down just a bit, and halve those bad hits and you'll easily have it.

[ThreeHeadedDog]

Yes it is alot of points but I wasnt really shooting it fast. I was just shooting comfortable. I was however having serious issues with not feeling my fingers. I will reshoot it when it warms up and I fully expect to be both faster in raw time(was taking quite a bit of extra time on the draw due to having less feeling in hands/fingers to be safe) and with about 1/3 the points down.

[Duane Thomas]

Slow down just a bit, and halve those bad hits and you'll easily have it.

In my experience - no offense, and I mean that seriously - "slow down and get the hits" is not great advice. I say this both from by own firsthand experience and watching other people shoot. When a person tells themself, "I'm going to slow down and get better hits, and then I'll have it," what happens is that not only do they shoot more slowly, they drop more points. Because they're overthinking things, and the conscious mind just can't move fast enough to run the shooting, they tend to fall apart.

I'll give you an example of an experience I had that illustrates this concept. When I was really pushing hard to get SSP Master, I had that frustrating "just a few seconds away" thing going on for awhile. Part of the problem was that I was dropping too many points. I decided to "slow down and get the points." Result: I slowed down and dropped more points. Then the ol' 40-watter popped, and I said to myself, "Let's just see what happens if I push myself to shoot faster than normal - not hugely faster, just fast enough that my conscious mind can't keep up, and I thus have no choice but to turn the shooting over to the more competent subconscious mind." Suddenly not only was I shooting faster, I was dropping a lot fewer points and that put me over the top.

[waktasz]

I think you guys at the master level are definitely working with a different set of tools though. I shot the classifier twice in the last couple months and the first time I did I missed EX by 1 second. I was trying to go as quick as I could and I sacrificed good hits in my rush to get shots off and shave time. I shot it again and just made sure to have a good sight picture and get my hits and I easily made it and was only a bit off Master. My raw time was slower too.

Looking at it now, the classification levels in IDPA are way too easy. You can go at almost a leisurely pace and make EX no problem. You can go just a bit faster and make Master. The problem is (IMO), that the "good" people can half the Master class cutoff on the classifier.

I'm certainly not a guru, but this is just my experience recently as I finally got over that hump from SS to EX.

I do like your thoughts though...one of the things I'm trying to get myself to do is push that *thumb rest [generic]* down harder and find the limit where I'm just barely hanging on.

Edited December 12, 2010 by waktasz

[jlweems]

Slow down just a bit, and halve those bad hits and you'll easily have it.

In my experience - no offense, and I mean that seriously - "slow down and get the hits" is not great advice. I say this both from by own firsthand experience and watching other people shoot. When a person tells themself, "I'm going to slow down and get better hits, and then I'll have it," what happens is that not only do they shoot more slowly, they drop more points. Because they're overthinking things, and the conscious mind just can't move fast enough to run the shooting, they tend to fall apart. I know that when I was really pushing hard to get SSP Master, I had that frustrating "just a few seconds away" thing going on for awhile. Part of the problem was that I was dropping too many points. I decided to "slow down and get the points." Result: I slowed down and dropped more points. Then the ol' 40-watter popped, and I said to myself, "Let's just see what happens if I push myself to shoot faster than normal - not hugely faster, just fast enough that my conscious mind can't keep up, and I thus have no choice but to turn the shooting over to the more competent subconscious mind." Suddenly not only was I shooting faster, I was dropping a lot fewer points and that put me over the top.

I recently classified for the first time in IDPA. I made the decision to shoot at a deliberate pace going for max accuracy and dropped 23 points for the match. The problem was that I classified as a MM missing SS by 1.08 seconds. I could have easily shaved that much time off of my score with the same accuracy. Now I'm stuck with a MM classification when I should easily be a SS, and based on my performance at the matches I have shot can run with the EX guys.

You can bet that I will be pushing much, much harder on my next opportunity in SSP.

---

To the OP, perhaps you could push harder on the stages in which you are strong and then concentrate on your weaker areas.

Edited December 12, 2010 by jlweems

[Duane Thomas]

The problem is (IMO), that the "good" people can half the Master class cutoff on the classifier.

Hack! Cough! Sorry. I want you to know I'm enjoying the exchange of ideas here, and I'm going for "humorous and friendly" rather than actually laughing at what you're saying in a mean way. Sometimes over the 'net, when you can't see the other person's face and hear their vocal tones, "humorous and friendly" doesn't come through the way it's meant to.

Having said that, I'm like, "A 'good' person can halve the Master class times? Uh, yeah, I'm just waiting for that 44 second run in ESP." That would be pretty darn "good" alright.

[waktasz]

Well if you say you can't you never will.

[Duane Thomas]

I was referring to the idea that anyone who's "good" can halve the IDPA Master classifier times. I mean, Ben Stoeger is a USPSA high Grand Master - I'm talking came-in-3rd-at-the-Nationals, that level of high Grand Master. When he does the classifier in a bit less than 60 seconds, I'm just saying that doing it 25 percent better even than that is not a level of performance that anyone who's "good" is going to be able to execute. I'm not going to sit here and say that level of performance is not theoretically possible, but I would not exactly be shocked if we never see it either.

So, "The problem is (IMO), that the 'good' people can half the Master class cutoff on the classifier" doesn't work for me as a statement. You're talking a level of performance that, currently at least, NO ONE can do, and saying it's common. Actually it's non-existent. Even if by "good" you mean "the best in the world" it's just never happened, not one person has ever done it - and it's one HELL of a long way away from ever happening.The closest analogy I can come up with is to say that would be like doing a 3 second El Presidente with all the points.

[waktasz]

I guess I'm exaggerating. I'm just saying when or if I do finally make Master (need 10 more seconds), I'm still going to stink. Making Master is just the beginning of the journey.

[Duane Thomas]

I guess I'm exaggerating.

Just a little.

Making Master is just the beginning of the journey.

I tend to agree with that, actually. It's like, at that level, you finally know just enough to really begin learning things.

[ThreeHeadedDog]

I really agree with the idea that slowing down and getting hits is really never the way to go. While I do also agree that you need to get the hits.

I think that you need to practice at a pace well beyond what you can perform optimal if for no other reason than you will never how to handle/control a pistol at speed unless you practice it.

You must first show you eyes/concious/subconcious the realm it needs to act/react in then after being in that realm you will learn to exist there more comfortably.

For example I am not guru or super shooter but I shoot the El Prez in about 6.00 +- .35 with mostly good hits most of the time. I practice regularly at the 5 second range and of course dont get the hits I need. I was not always at the 6.00 range and would never have been able to be comfortable there if I hadnt practiced beyond my ability when I was at the 8.00 range. I would have never learned or maby more appropriately conditioned myself to be able to read the sights, draw/transition to my index, snap my eyes, or any other of the other nuances that we must all be able to do faster than we currently are. I also fully intend to be saying the same thing next year or sooner about shooting the El pres in X.xx time where I used to shoot it in 6 seconds.

I think that if we as shooters and competitors alway think and relize that we should be beyond where we are we will always get better.

[waktasz]

That's true and I really like your thoughts on speed and how to improve, but I've seen it in person tons of times...people blaze through the classifier trying to burn it down, and on stage three they drop 20 seconds worth of penalties because they are shooting at the same pace as stage 1 or 2.

[lugnut]

First- let me say that I've classified as SSP Master many times... and in only one of them was my time faster than 76secs and that wasn't my best run! My best was 89 and change. But.....

... I will NOT tell you to slow down. That's the wrong way to look at things as everyone says. What you need to do is make sure you don't break your shots until you see your sights in the down zero. Yeah sure, sometimes you will move the sights before the shot breaks and miss the down zero but if I was a betting man- I'd say you have one or two things to work on...

1) See the sights when the shot breaks

2) Work on keeping you gun stable so you can hold a down zero when the shot breaks

Shooting in the cold makes both of these more challenging for sure!

FYI my fastest IDPA El Pres in the classifier is in the 7s range... not all down zero either. If you are consistently in the 6 sec range you should be in Master for sure... next time you will get it!

Edited December 13, 2010 by lugnut

[Duane Thomas]

I'm pretty sure the commentary on a 5-6 second El Prez refers to the USPSA El Prez, not the demi-El Prezes (targets at staggered heights instead of the same height, two yards apart instead of one, slidelock reload instead of speedload) on the classifier.

[ThreeHeadedDog]

My IDPA Prez on this perticular classifier was 7.01. I dont know how many down because of the way it was scored all at once. I usually shoot mid 6.0 in warm weather with 0-3 ish down depending on the run. And yes 5 second Prez's are USPSA ones but like everything else I practice so that I will eventually do better and hopefully I will get some good runs in the 5's IDPA style(best IDPA run so far raw time wise was 5.8x with 3 down).

Edited December 13, 2010 by ThreeHeadedDog

[Duane Thomas]

Is that on the "one shot per at 7" or the "two shots per at 10" string?

[tightloop]

There are some pretty good posts on how to analyze the classifier and do your best....but there is a bit more to it than trying to go a little slower or a little faster...

Knowing your own weaknesses and strengths and playing toward those that you do well will help get you where you want to be, all the while practicing what you do not enjoy or shoot particularly well.

[ThreeHeadedDog]

To clarify everything on times I will just post the classifier.

first part

String#

1. 2.35(-0)

2. 2.18(-0)

3. 2.18(-0)

4. 4.69(-0)

5. 2.69(-3 in the middle and -1 on right target I pulled both shots bad and saw it in sights it was a direct result of snatcing the trigger)

6. 6.61(slamed the reload squarely into the rim of magwell and had to readjust the reload and got a -3 in the rush back after the reload)

7. 4.57

I was 11 down after this and am not really sure where the other points were lost but they were in stages 5-7 somewhere my memory is fading a bit

second part

String #

1. 3.29

2. 3.38

3. 7.01

4. 4.67

went 20 pts down here the moving and shooting killed me as I simply couldnt keep from snatching the trigger(I do alot of dry fire and this is not normally a problem but I simply couldnt keep the trigger finger working right in the cold)

Third part

String #

1. 14.11

2. 13.18

3. 5.15

I went down 10 on left target(ten -1's. about a 10 inch spread wide directly under the -0 and maby 5 inch vert spread) 5 down center(five -1's) and 15 down on the right with my only miss being 5 pts of that

By my math thats ends up being 106.56 with 76.06 raw time.

I didnt shoot anything at a pace beyond what I considered comfortable but definately didnt perform as well accuracy wise as I am used to. I havent shot the classifier for score in about 3-4 years.

I acutally brought up this top not so much to talk about the times themselves but as a general awakening as to how much more difficult it is to perform in the cold. I know throughout the day(shot a match before the classifier) I had so many mistakes it wasnt even funny. That included 3 or 4 early shots that were taken within the last inch or so of getting to full extension. This was an eye opener to me as luckily for me they were all open shots and I made all -1 or better hits on them but the gun went off just that split second before I expected it to because of the difference in feeling in my fingers. This also reinforced for me just how much I dont agree with the slightly muzzle high press out that some support, I was very happy that I have engrained a parallel to the ground press-out for safty reasons. I couldnt feel the pressure and feedback I was used to feeling when shooting.

[lugnut]

THD- tell me about the cold, I hear you. 30s isn't too bad unless it's cloudy and windy. That being said I try to keep warm as much as possible- if I don't have hand warmers I'm always keeping my hands under my arm pits. You need to keep the hands warm. Try shooting SSR in cold rain/snow- now that sucks!

[Ahab]

I used to shoot the whole mess, all three stages at 20 yards at least once a month. I figured if I can get good hits at 20 yards I can get good hits at 7 easily. I had mixed results doing this, but what it did definitely make me do is actually look forward to Stage 3. It's my favorite stage of the classifier.

[Duane Thomas]

It gives you an opportunity to excel at something that most people can't do well.

[CHARLES D]

I guess I should quit complaining when it dips down below 65 degrees in Southren Cal. Shooting in 30 degree weather takes much dedication. My hats off to all of you folks.

[Ahab]

It gives you an opportunity to excel at something that most people can't do well.

Plus, at major matches it's a lock that there will be several shots out past 15 yards, which if all a person practices is the 7 and 10 yard stuff, they're not going to be able to do too well. That and it's useful for that "other" shooting game, with the raceguns and whatnot.