25 yard..draw, fire, 3" circle....whats a good time?

[steel1212]

This is way too precise. I think you would be much better off training yourself to become familiar with the pace it takes for a draw and head shot at 15-20 yards. Or a full target A hit at 50 yards.

You would never be required to shoot a 3" target at 25 yards in any match. Not even a crazy outlaw 3 gun match. I guess if you just had to shoot an A shot in a head in production division it could happen but come on there are so many more good drills out there.

That's true. But if you train to do something harder than you will probably ever have to do, it will make doing what you normally have to do easier.

be

Train for the impossible and the possible is easy.

[Flexmoney]

There is no double tap.

[G-ManBart]

Thank you all for the many responses and examples with times. I have been trying to shoot very accurately at distance so that I can really roll on the closer stuff. Similar to a baseball player who puts weights on the end of his bat and takes a few swings before stepping to the batters box. I know there will not be many actual instances where it will be required to hit a 3 inch circle at 25...but it was fun to practice.

While working on the 25yd 3" drill is good, it doesn't necessarily translate to "really roll on the closer stuff". You need to work on both skills.

My best practice time would be spent working on the (fast) 15 yard double tap! I suffer tremendously there. Thanks again for all the responses. Regards, G

Actually, no, that wouldn't be good practice time. You need to work on two individual shots, that just happen to occur close to one another in time. A "double tap" is usually one aimed shot, and one leap of faith. Fast splits are also one of the areas where you can save the least amount of time. Going from a .25 split to something like a .18 split is a big difference in skill, but little difference in the overall time. Most people can gain far more by working on making faster transitions between targets where they can often save several tenths of a second per transition....tenths, not hundredths, and the clock doesn't lie

[twikster]

Not true. What it will do is teach you to go more slowly than what you have to do, because you practiced on too small a target, or at too great a range.

[Panic Flinch]

I'm hearing there is no such thing as a double tap..umm...ok... what I meant is .. "two well aimed taps in fast succession". Minus the leap of faith. I need to get better at that.... whatever the name may be.

[benos]

Not true. What it will do is teach you to go more slowly than what you have to do, because you practiced on too small a target, or at too great a range.

That definitely was not true for me. I've posted this somewhere (I think more than once) but rather than trying to find it I'll re-nutshell it here. TGO and I spent a day practicing with our pistols, but shooting at carbine type-distance targets, at 40 to 80 yards. The next day we shot an IPSC match (targets at typical 10 to 20 yard range) - and afterwards we both agreed it was the "easiest" match we'd ever shot. (We tore it up, finishing 1st and 2nd.)

be

[bbbean]

...TGO and I ...

I think he meant for ordinary mortals.

[oak hill]

Not true. What it will do is teach you to go more slowly than what you have to do, because you practiced on too small a target, or at too great a range.

That definitely was not true for me. I've posted this somewhere (I think more than once) but rather than trying to find it I'll re-nutshell it here. TGO and I spent a day practicing with our pistols, but shooting at carbine type-distance targets, at 40 to 80 yards. The next day we shot an IPSC match (targets at typical 10 to 20 yard range) - and afterwards we both agreed it was the "easiest" match we'd ever shot. (We tore it up, finishing 1st and 2nd.)

be

Good idea! I usually end each practice with 10 rounds at 40 yds to keep things "tight" but a whole practice would really do wonders. Something i will be trying soon!

[pjb45]

Over the past few years, I have talked with many GMs about what it takes to improve. Almost everyone said, "Work on the hard stuff until it becomes easy."

My shooting has noticable improved by doing some simple things like practicing at 25-30 yards instead of 10 yards. Incorporating 40-50 yards targets and 4 inch plate racks into the session has improved my accuracy significantly. I see targets much clearer and faster now. Lately I have spent time with targets that have No Shoots attached or nearby. I rarely practice wiht full targets any more. It seems more and more major matches have more hard cover and no shoots.

At a recent match I set up one swinger with hard cover and another with a No Shoot. Granted they were rather close but the idea was to get people use to shooting them without panicing.

I agee with BE that practicing the hard stuff makes the normal stuff seem easier. Matt once said he did a lot of practice at 40 yards, because when he got to twenty yards the targets looked huge.

There is a caveat to all of this, IMO, and that is your ability to break the shot when you have a good sight picture not a perfect one. I notice at this year's nationals on the very close targets I was waiting too long to let my sights settle when others where just hammering away. By close I mean a yard or so. Taking a second to get an A may not make sense when you can get a C in .25 of a second. With four targets I took an extra 4 seconds for a difference of 4 points or so.

[BigDave]

You would never be required to shoot a 3" target at 25 yards in any match. Not even a crazy outlaw 3 gun match.

Bianchi X-ring is a 4" circle. At 25 yds, you have 5 seconds to hit two of them, 6 seconds to hit two twice, 7...

[twikster]

the x ring is only for breaking ties, right? so unless you first fire a perfect score, the x means nothing.

[twikster]

as for what a couple of guys can do, who started with the best gear, the best coaching, were never allowed to make a mistake (like firing without ear or eye protection) never had to do much of anything but shoot, who fired say, 100,000 rds a year, one day's "results", on one match, doesn't seem too pertinent as to an evaluation of a general learning method, for others less blessed in the way of time, money, coaching, etc.

[benos]

the x ring is only for breaking ties, right? so unless you first fire a perfect score, the x means nothing.

The Bianchi Cup is often decided by X count.

as for what a couple of guys can do, who started with the best gear, the best coaching, were never allowed to make a mistake (like firing without ear or eye protection) never had to do much of anything but shoot, who fired say, 100,000 rds a year, one day's "results", on one match, doesn't seem too pertinent as to an evaluation of a general learning method, for others less blessed in the way of time, money, coaching, etc.

For years now, the Bianchi Cup has been won by either Doug Koenig or Bruce Piatt. Neither take failing well. Which is why they seldom do. I know them both well. Especially Doug - we trained together for many years. He didn't start with the "best gear," he pioneered the best gear. A more innovative competitive shooter would be difficult to name. And for certain, he is 100% self taught. IMO he is a coach's coach. Until he won enough national championships to earn a full time sponsorship, he was a construction worker. If he is blessed with anything, it is a relentless determination to perfecting and executing flawless technique. Perhaps that is role model material for anyone, regardless of one's specific field of endeavor.

be

[carlosa]

For years now, the Bianchi Cup has been won by either Doug Koenig or Bruce Piatt. Neither take failing well. Which is why they seldom do. I know them both well. Especially Doug - we trained together for many years. He didn't start with the "best gear," he pioneered the best gear. A more innovative competitive shooter would be difficult to name. And for certain, he is 100% self taught. IMO he is a coach's coach. Until he won enough national championships to earn a full time sponsorship, he was a construction worker. If he is blessed with anything, it is a relentless determination to perfecting and executing flawless technique. Perhaps that is role model material for anyone, regardless of one's specific field of endeavor.

be

powerful stuff B, thanks for sharing...

[pjb45]

BE, Look at who won Bianchi Cup Production. Kyle had somewhat good coaching , he ran an SA XD if I am not mistaken, and worked his ass off with determination to excel at accuracy. I suspect he did not do it by only shooting at targets 7 yards away.

[larry1096]

How long to put 70% in a 3" circle at 25 yards?

About twenty years, but I can usually do it now.

Larry

[BigDave]

the x ring is only for breaking ties, right? so unless you first fire a perfect score, the x means nothing.

Yes it is for breaking ties. But not only when you fire a perfect score.

[Matt Griffin]

A good draw is around .8-.9 for me, that's a draw where I get a quality grip on the gun and present it cleanly towards the target. After that it's all about sight quality and trigger control. I'd say that 3" at 25 yards is a bit easier than my 10yd shotgun shell, but not much, and those splits were somewhere around .6-.7 for the dead perfect sight picture. If you can hit the 3" target every time in less than 2 seconds, you're smoking. EVERY time.

H.

[Got Juice?]

I have been cheating while practicing. I have organized a pistol silhouette shoot using smallbore rifle targets.

15,20,25,30 yards Chicken, Pig, Turkey, Ram.

You would be suprised how much it sharpens your accuracy. Even using the .22 pistol as the training tool.

[38supPat]

Occasionally I play with the guys on the silhouette range, we have 40, 60, 77 and 100m bunkers, we shoot the 40m and 60m bunkers with the rifle chicken, turkey, pig and ram in each bunker. That little chicken at 60m is one seriously challenging shot.

[Got Juice?]

Occasionally I play with the guys on the silhouette range, we have 40, 60, 77 and 100m bunkers, we shoot the 40m and 60m bunkers with the rifle chicken, turkey, pig and ram in each bunker. That little chicken at 60m is one seriously challenging shot.

Yesir, aim small, miss small.

The really great thing about silhouette pistol that a lot of people miss (because they are too busy turning their noses up at it) is that you learn better holding pressure on your gun. Heeling, anticipating, too much trigger, unequal pressure, will NOT reward you on the silhouette range. I credit a lot of my recent success in learning to shoot steel and IPSC stages with the training I still do twice a month at the silhouette range that me and another fellow started.

In fact, Jim Zimmerman commented to me at the last shoot 'you know, we need 2 classes, a MASTER class and a SHOOTER class' My reply was 'As soon as you make a PERFECT score, we will'

Which got a big laugh from Jim. Point taken I think.