Religious Shooter Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 I haven't shot a USPSA certified 3-gun match yet. I shoot at local matches that aren't really USPSA affiliated. I don't have bipod. My rifles are set-up for Limited or Tactical Division. A lot of times when we have a bench shoot for a stage I would bring over my range bag and use it as a rest. My question is, is this a legal practice in USPSA in Limited or Tactical? How about Open? How about RM3G or SMM36? Also, can I use a filled sock for the buttstock when shooting either with a bipod or with a bag (as in the above situation)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 You won't have the time to do all that. Just grip it & rip it. Remember the stages are scored on time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 28, 2004 Author Share Posted February 28, 2004 I'm talking about at the start. Sort of like you are a sniper and you are on target and at the beep you engage the targets (very common theme with this one particular match I shoot at). But that would be kind of funny... [/crazy tactical mode on/] Snipers use the back pack as a field expedient rest all the time. I'm gonna shoot a stage with a QD back pack and practice this technique. As I run up on a shooting position that encourages prone, I'm gonna take off my back pack and fling it to the ground and use it for cover and concealment and as a field expedient rest. http://photos.bravenet.com/238/607/223/2/B1A858A564.jpg http://photos.bravenet.com/292/803/448/3/197BEC67D8.jpg http://photos.bravenet.com/292/803/448/3/679B669B62.jpg [/crazy tactical mode off/] But seriously, has anybody done this in a major match? I don't want to do this at the local match if it is not legal. I use the local matches to prepare for the "real" matches and since it would be a "crutch" and would not be good preparation for a real match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 Well if you had a bipod you couldnt use it in limited or taclial and the clock is going to rip you a new one with that pack deal, get on your belly, monopod that gun on a 30 rd mag and shoot. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 I'm talking about at the start. Sort of like you are a sniper and you are on target and at the beep you engage the targets (very common theme with this one particular match I shoot at). I've never seen a match where you would want to do anything like that. If you don't care about your time, then it's a different story, but . . . You also won't encounter a USPSA 3-gun match where you will start "on target" like you described. I'm surprised to hear of any matches that start that way. Usually it is from low ready or something similar. Using your backpack as an expedient field rest is great for when you have the luxury of time (like when you're hunting). Most sharpshooting and "sniping" is done at a significantly slower pace than USPSA shooting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 28, 2004 Author Share Posted February 28, 2004 That whole running around with a back pack was done tongue-in-cheek. I wasn't being serious... Note the happy face. Other than the legality of it, I don't see what I am doing is such a time waster. You have 200-300 yd targets to engage. You have the option of either 1) using a bag as a rest (like I am describing), 2) using your elbows as support or 3) use the magazine as a monopod. Even if you aren't on target at the start, say you are at port arms. And say your next step is to engage the 200-300 yard targets. So you plunk down into prone and you have those three options above. How is using a bag a timewaster when compare to the other two options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 How is using a bag a timewaster when compare to the other two options Because it is an additional task to perform compared to just dropping into position and letting it rip. I am not sure that you have a total comprehension of the speed with which things are done in 3 gun rifle shooting. If you blink your eyes twice, you are down a place or two! Seriously, it's all about time and any way to remove some of it from your stage performance. Any item deployed by the shooter for support (where allowed, lots rules on this) has to be started with in it's stowed, non-deployed position. The mag is already there for mono-podding. Bipods take virtually no time to flip down as you are dropping into position. Slings and elbows are also fast to deploy. Shooting sticks and bags are not utilized (I have never seen either used in 3 gun) because they are not virtually instantaneous in usage. The sight picture required for 2-300 yard shooting at 8-12" targets is nowhere near as critical as you are probably thinking it is. I have only been to one match where a stage started with the shooter rested and in position and this was for a special long distance rifle used to start a four gun stage. You will not see this type of start in normal 3 gun competition. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 28, 2004 Author Share Posted February 28, 2004 Because it is an additional task to perform compared to just dropping into position and letting it rip. Again, I wasn't serious when I said I would be totting around the back pack... maybe you were typing your reply after I posted my previous message? I thought it was a common practice to show that you are kidding with happy faces and [xxx] stuff [/xxx]. I guess my brand of humor is off. When I am talking about using the bag (when I was serious), it has already been deployed. I am not sure that you have a total comprehension of the speed with which things are done in 3 gun rifle shooting. If you blink your eyes twice, you are down a place or two! I've been shooting non-USPA 3-gun for about 5 years. I've shot matches in the CA 3-gun series (which Butler shoots) that is Non-USPSA. I thought I had a good grasp of what speed is. But your blinking eyes comment is enlightening. The sight picture required for 2-300 yard shooting at 8-12" targets is nowhere near as critical as you are probably thinking it is. I shoot a 16" iron sighted gun in Limited (including the matches that I mentioned where I used the bag) during the 5 or so years. I only got a flat-top with an optic when USPSA decided to create Tactical. Anyways, maybe due too my inexperience, equipment and lack of practice I think those 2-300 yard 8" targets need a good sight picture (iron sights) and steady support. I went practicing with my new upper and I see your point. At 4X the sight picture and a supported hold you don't need as a refined hold as my iron sighted (IMHO) 16 did. I have only been to one match where a stage started with the shooter rested and in position and this was for a special long distance rifle used to start a four gun stage. You will not see this type of start in normal 3 gun competition. Since Rhino said the same thing I guess it is pretty uncommon. This start, while not pervasive, is a "common" start here in California. The CA 3-gun series that I mentioned utilizes it on occasion and my local club seems to use it every other month. Anyways, I guess I better stop using the bag. I still say it isn't a time waster if it is already deployed. But from the responses it doesn't look like it is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 RS, The proof is in the pudding. Get a timer and practice both ways. If I were shooting a stage with 300 yd targets and it was legal to use a rest, I'd throw my range bag down and have at it. I think this scenario would be a rarity in most 3-gun matches, at least in my limited experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 Either I don't get it or this thread is crazy. You can't "deploy" a range bag on a course of fire at a USPSA 3-Gun match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 It never hurts to ask the match director if you have a "special request" either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 Either I don't get it or this thread is crazy. You can't "deploy" a range bag on a course of fire at a USPSA 3-Gun match. Ditto. Everybody shoots the same stage. Nobody gets to add stuff to it...or take stuff away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 When I am talking about using the bag (when I was serious), it has already been deployed. The practice of pre-deploying an accessory for a rifle rest would not be allowed in any of the major 3 gun matches out there with the exception of the MGM IronMan where a lot of rule bending is allowed just because it's more of a carnival event than a serious race for the gold. In a glorified club match like the CA 3 gun series you might be allowed to do things that are proscribed eleswhere, but you will never get to do things like that at a major match like the USPSA 3 gun nationals or for that matter at any 3 gun match run strictly by USPSA or IMG rules. As mentioned by Flex & SS, the only things that are pre-deployed are the existing stage props. Everything else that is allowed to happen (by the rules) must happen after the start signal. I've been shooting non-USPA 3-gun for about 5 years. I've shot matches in the CA 3-gun series (which Butler shoots) that is Non-USPSA. I thought I had a good grasp of what speed is. But your blinking eyes comment is enlightening. When you are shooting against the big dawgs, anytime you take an extra shot, or step, or waste any fraction of a second you down another place If you have watched anyone like Butler (or Voigt who also shoots the CA 3 gun series), then you must know what I am talking about here. I guess I better stop using the bag. I still say it isn't a time waster if it is already deployed. Once again, at real matches (not club level) it will not be legal to pre-position anything. Anyways, maybe due too my inexperience, equipment and lack of practice I think those 2-300 yard 8" targets need a good sight picture (iron sights) and steady support.I went practicing with my new upper and I see your point. At 4X the sight picture and a supported hold you don't need as a refined hold as my iron sighted (IMHO) 16 did Knowing what amount of imprecision you can get away with is more important than the amount of precision you can apply to a sight picture in 3 gun rifle. In USPSA MOR competition a portable rest deployed under the rear of the rifle may be desireable due to the precision required in that game. A little less time is usually worth more than a little more accuracy in most practical shooting competition. Hope to see you at the 3 gun nationals this year, or maybe at the Sacramento stop of the CA 3 gun series (I'm in Northern CA) -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 At the risk of getting a lot of grief I'll take a some what different stance. At last years RM3G ( major match ) I was on Kelly Neals squad ( Big Dog ) and he did just what you discribed, used one of Dillon's ammo bags as a rest. Asked first and was told OK but would have to take it with him for the whole stage. He placed very well ( 1st. in He-Man class )! Also starting with gun on target has been done at SMM3G ( major match ) last two years and we did it last weekend at our monthly match in Kansas. Now for the disclaimer probably not in a USPSA sanctioned match but it never hurts to ask they may catch up with the sport yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 I don't think they made me take it through the whole stage. I remember that I used it for the second firing position to get over some brush and then abandoned it. There was one spot on that log I liked but one target was obscured so I used the bag to get the rifle a bit higher. I may have also used it for the first firing postion (over that big rock) because I was afraid of hitting the rock and spraying me, my squad and the ROs with high speed rock and bullet bits. And as Bronco said, I ASKED FIRST! That way the worst that could happen was the RO saying No. I believe I placed 3rd or 4th on that stage including the open and tactical shooters so it payed off. That was not a USPSA match and I doubt that would have happened at the 3 gun nationals. I think it's the only time that I've ever done that. But NEVER SAY NEVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 disclaimer to follow... kinda, sorta on the same idea... I have a vertical grip on the full float tube and while I'm honestly trying to do as Mikey tells me to do and draw my elbows down into my chest and somewhat center the carbine, but most of the time the primary job of the grip is to be a monopod.... it works for both prone... Hawkins position with the top fingers grasping the handle and heel of fist on ground...if planting the mag in the sand is not a good idea, and off most vertical range props .... I use it whenever accuracy is essential...haven't used a bag except when sighting in on the public line.... regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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