Talk me out of the 650

[IceDevil]

I am an IDPA/steel challenge shooter shooting a couple times per month for a total of about 750-1,000 rnds/mo and I have never reloaded before. I basically shoot only 9mm but would like to also eventually load for 45 and maybe 223. After pouring over all the material in Brian's store for the last three wks, it seems like the 550 would be a good place to start, but I keep coming back to the 650. It's only a $125 cost difference w/o the case feeder and the difference is even smaller if you add the feeder to both. In the grand scheme of the $1k+ upfront investment, it seems worthwhile to spend an extra $100 in exchange for a 5th station to run a powder check die, auto indexing, purpose built case feeder, and never having to worry about upgrading if I start shooting more. The only downside I can see is that the extra complexity of the 650 will require more fiddling and be harder to learn on. These worry me a lot more than more expensive cal changes since I don't see myself doing a lot of changes. As a practical matter, I have two young kids and work long hours, so the less time spent in the garage reloading, the better. Not looking for another time consuming hobby. I just want to be able to head into the garage for an hour or two at night and produce nice powder-puff minor loads for cheaper than factory.

My plan would be to buy the 650 w/o the feeder and go slow at first (why not start with loading only one full round round at a time?) to learn the machine and reloading process and then in 4-5 mos (or whenever I feel comfortable speeding things up) add the case feeder (yes I have read the thread on the stupidity of buying a 650 w/o feeder). I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this plan and how my circumstances fit into what seems to be the age old debate of 550 vs 650. How much harder is it really going to be to learn on a 650 vs. 550? How much more "fiddling" for the 650 (in surfing these boards it seems like every press requires some amount fiddling)? This may be one of those choices that has two good options - I doubt I would regret either purchase - but it would be nice to get this purchase right the first time.

Thanks in advance for your input!

Mods, not sure if this goes in the Newbie or Dillon forum - feel free to move it.

[Powder Finger]

(TITLE) That's easy 1050.

[ak47traxx]

I'd get the 650 if I had to do over.

[GrumpyOne]

In all actuality, you shoud probably start on a single stage press, to better understand everything that is going on when you reload a round. That being said, I started on a 550. The 650 is a great machine, but it does have some extra complexity involved in setting it up and operating it. The 550 is very simple to use, very simple to change out tool heads to change calibers, and even without a case feeder, can be quite fast, once you get used to it and know what you are doing. The 550, being a manual progressive, does have at least one advantage (or disadvantage, depending on your point of view) over the 650 IMO. With it, since you have to manually rotate the shell plate to each station, you can stop after one round, remove it, inspect it, weigh the charge, dump powder back in the hopper, and start over with the same case. Thye disadvantage to this is that if you aren't paying attention, and don't dump the charge back into the hopper, you have a double charge, but this is possible with a 650 as well.

With the volume you are talking about, a 650 is way overkill IMO. A 550 will suit your needs perfectly. On my 550, with no case or bullet feeder, I can load around 450-500 an hour if I have everything set up the way it needs to be (bullets here, cases there, primer tubes loaded, etc.).

Here is another thread for you to peruse.....

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=100964&view=findpost&p=1151483

Edited November 19, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[IceDevil]

(TITLE) That's easy 1050.

I could load a months worth of ammo in a half hour!

[benos]

I agree with most of Grumpy's post, except for the first sentence. Just start with a 550; you can load one round at at ime on it, but you'll get real tired of that after about 5 minutes.

And the price difference isn't just in the cost of the press, a Caliber Conversion Kit and a Toolhead for the 650 are $37 more than for the 550. And when you add the Casefeeder, it's $38 per Casefeed Plate after that.

For the calibers and the qty's you will load, I would recommend the 550. As Grumpy said, you can load 4 - 500 rounds/hr on it, so in two hours you've loaded your months worth of ammo. It's way easier to switch calibers on the 550 than it is on the 650. And the 550, being a much simplier press with less parts "doing things for you," is more reliable over the long haul. And another cool thing about the 550 - everything that is happening on it is visible. Which is not the case with the 650's priming system. On the 550, if you are tuning / tweaking the priming system, you can make some changes and observe whether or not they made and effect. With the 650 that's not the case. Since the 650' priming system is mechanically operated and in a captured housing, if you are working on the priming system, you take it apart, make some adjustments, and when you put it back together you hope you made some improvements, because you can't watch it work.

Call if you want to talk it out some more.

be

Toll-free: 877 219-5598

[DyNo!]

A 650 allows you to reload (and make mistakes) at an exponentially higher rate.

I say get a 550 first or a 650 and a friend that has used one for a few years.

[bbbean]

I just got a new 650, and it is a sweet machine, but I'm glad I spent some a year or two learning how to reload on the 550. I have a much better understanding of how a press is supposed to work. I also made my mistakes at a much slower pace, and have a lot fewer rounds in the "pull" can than I would if I'd started on the 650.

All that said, if you have an experienced buddy who'll help you get setup and hang around the first several times you reload, your learning curve on the 650 might not be as steep as it is for someone who is working solely from the manual, enosverse, and trial and error.

[Pat Miles]

I will argue with those who say start with a 550 (sorry Brian). Why spend time on the learning curve with a 550 when the same time can be used on a 650. I have owned a Square Deal, a pair of 550's and now have a pair of 650's so I can speak from my experiences. Don't get me wrong, the 550 is a good machine but the 650 is a better machine. The 1050 is the one Dillon reloader that I have no desire to have after 15 years with a 650. Too expensive, not only to buy but for caliber changes. The 550 and the 650 have Dillons NO BS warranty which the 1050 does not have. Buy a 650 and keep it forever.

Pat

[Boxerglocker]

I say 650 right off the bat being your loading 9mm at the 750-1000 rate. You can bet that will increase almost immediately to 1500.

Later down the line decide if a conversion would be in order for a second caliber in LPP or just get a 550 to load the calibers you don't shoot as often.

I load on a XL650 with casefeeder for 9mm only, use a SDB for .45ACP and .380 Auto right now.

I'll eventually get a 550 too for LPP and oddball calibers. Use the 650 for 9mm, .223 and .380 Auto

[rick t]

I started with a Rock Chucker at age 14, at about 35 got a Pro 1000 (I needed allot of pistol ammo) at 37 wore it out! So I listened to a wise old friend that said if "If I were you I would buy the best Dillon I could afford wish I had". Well I did and that was a 650 I am now 55 and have never regretted my purchase and still use the Rock Chucker too.

[PeterMor]

My first press was a 650 through Brian, it's been great and I have no regrets! I say go 650 and dont look back!

[gfmun]

I started out with a Square Deal B and really enjoyed learning to reload with it. After about a year I sold it and moved to a XL650. The best thing I had going was a buddy who came out and helped me set up the SDB and was there to answer questions. I wish I had kept the SDB for those odd times when I want to reload just a few rounds of what I am not set up for in the 650.

thanks,

George

[Chris Keen]

I wish I had started with the 650. I had a used 550 that I cussed at allot. It didn't do much good, so I bought the 650, and sold the 550.

[sirveyr]

I went though the same dilema: 650 vs. 550. I went with the 650 with case feeder. The case feeder was the best decsion that I ever made. When it comes to buying the extra parts, like the extra powder hopper for a caliber conversion, that's not really needed...just buy it. It will be totally worth the few extra dollars right now. I have many friends that have Dillions; half with 550's and the other half 650's. I'm glad that I listened to my 650 friends. The whole set up is awesome. I spent many years cranking out 10-12K rounds per year on a Lee Turret press, so the 650 was a welcome and well desereved change.

[GrumpyOne]

I agree with most of Grumpy's post, except for the first sentence. Just start with a 550; you can load one round at at ime on it, but you'll get real tired of that after about 5 minutes.

And the price difference isn't just in the cost of the press, a Caliber Conversion Kit and a Toolhead for the 650 are $37 more than for the 550. And when you add the Casefeeder, it's $38 per Casefeed Plate after that.

For the calibers and the qty's you will load, I would recommend the 550. As Grumpy said, you can load 4 - 500 rounds/hr on it, so in two hours you've loaded your months worth of ammo. It's way easier to switch calibers on the 550 than it is on the 650. And the 550, being a much simplier press with less parts "doing things for you," is more reliable over the long haul. And another cool thing about the 550 - everything that is happening on it is visible. Which is not the case with the 650's priming system. On the 550, if you are tuning / tweaking the priming system, you can make some changes and observe whether or not they made and effect. With the 650 that's not the case. Since the 650' priming system is mechanically operated and in a captured housing, if you are working on the priming system, you take it apart, make some adjustments, and when you put it back together you hope you made some improvements, because you can't watch it work.

Call if you want to talk it out some more.

be

Toll-free: 877 219-5598

How can you argue with anything he's said ? He's a Dillon dealer (his primary business!), knows the presses inside out, and is a world class shooter and all around great guy....NUF SAID!

[IceDevil]

Wow! Thanks for all the thoughtful (and quick) replies. Without tallying them, the responses seem to be roughly evenly split between 550/650, so I guess I shouldn't feel too bad about struggling with the choice. All of the responses have been very helpful - keep them coming.

[IceDevil]

I agree with most of Grumpy's post, except for the first sentence. Just start with a 550; you can load one round at at ime on it, but you'll get real tired of that after about 5 minutes.

And the price difference isn't just in the cost of the press, a Caliber Conversion Kit and a Toolhead for the 650 are $37 more than for the 550. And when you add the Casefeeder, it's $38 per Casefeed Plate after that.

For the calibers and the qty's you will load, I would recommend the 550. As Grumpy said, you can load 4 - 500 rounds/hr on it, so in two hours you've loaded your months worth of ammo. It's way easier to switch calibers on the 550 than it is on the 650. And the 550, being a much simplier press with less parts "doing things for you," is more reliable over the long haul. And another cool thing about the 550 - everything that is happening on it is visible. Which is not the case with the 650's priming system. On the 550, if you are tuning / tweaking the priming system, you can make some changes and observe whether or not they made and effect. With the 650 that's not the case. Since the 650' priming system is mechanically operated and in a captured housing, if you are working on the priming system, you take it apart, make some adjustments, and when you put it back together you hope you made some improvements, because you can't watch it work.

Call if you want to talk it out some more.

be

Toll-free: 877 219-5598

How can you argue with anything he's said ? He's a Dillon dealer (his primary business!), knows the presses inside out, and is a world class shooter and all around great guy....NUF SAID!

I agree that his input carries more weight than others. Plus, it's pretty hard to argue with somebody selling you a product who is emphatic that you should buy the cheaper one! Don't run into that scenario very often.

[glynnm45]

I, as well went through the same process of selecting the right press for me, NOT TO MEET MY NEEDS, but what I WANTED.. It doesn't matter how much or many you load, it really doesn't, what matters is how much enjoyment you will receive from the process of reloading. Yeah, money is always tight for me, but I deserve to have the reloader I WANT. Once you use a progressive press such as the 650 you'll be glad you started there. I really enjoy my 650. I load probably 300 - 500 rounds a month at best, loading maybe a hundred at a time. No speed runs, no time limits, ect. I just relax and load at a slow pace. Everything else just seems to fade away. So, I say if you can afford the 650, GET the 650. You won't regret that decision and you can slowly grow into a very satisfying relationship.

[rodell]

I had the same struggle, and read everything I could find. In the end, I went against Brian's advice and ordered the 650 (from Brian, he won in the end?). I wanted a press that I would never outgrow, even though my needs didn't "justify" it. I initially went without the casefeeder, but my son couldn't keep up getting brass loaded.

I use the 650 for my most shot calibers, and, a SDB for lesser handgun calibers and a Redding turret for low volume rifle. I have already accumulated the caliber conversions I'm likely to ever need. I find the caliber conversions sound a lot worse than they are - I don't know what people are doing with their time! Even the demo DVD doesn't take as long as some people seem to take. I lay out the parts on the left side of the press and just "process" them into place, ending up with the removed conversion parts on the right. I do have multiple toolheads so I don't change dies/measures. I thought the tool holder on the back was just a gimmick (but I bought one anyway!) but it really does save time.

The "enclosed" priming system on the 650 has its good and bad points. I'll take the extra check station and the auto index as tradeoffs that work for me. (In the interest of full disclosure, I shoot a lot of 357. It is very difficult to see small charges of Clays in the case without being uncomfortable - I like the check station. 9mm wouldn't be as difficult.)

Since getting the press earlier this year, I've added clamps to the toolheads, a primer catch modification, changed the primer pins to Lee, added the shellplate bearing modification and clipped the detent spring. None of this really necessary, but, has increased my understanding of the press and the process. The press really sings and I can't imagine needing something else in the future - mission accomplished.

You have mentioned you are not an experienced reloader - any of the progressives will serve you for a long time.

Edited November 20, 2010 by rodell

[G-ManBart]

If the overall amount of time spent is what matters (set up, adjustments, etc), I'd say get an SDB first, and if you ever decide to load .223, worry about upgrading then. You'll be able to sell the SDB easily, and will have a good idea of how reloading, and presses, should work. No, the SDB isn't perfect, but its exceedingly easy to use, faster than a 550 (two operations per round versus three), and will get you cranking out safe, accurate, high quality ammo in a couple of hours after you open the box....you'll still be reading the book on the 550 or 650 at that point (much less having it mounted and adjusted).

I used an SDB for years, even when I was shooting 1K per week, and it has always done a good job. I'm at the point now where time is more important than money, and I added a 1050...but kept the SDB, which is set up for my second most used round. I know Brian isn't a big fan of them, but I see it as a no-lose situation....even if you eventually decide you want more press, it's not going to cost that much since someone is always looking to buy a second SDB. R,

Edited November 20, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Gabe Athouse]

I spent years on a single stage and just went to the 550. I love it, no complaints. Check out some youtube videos of both machines, that helped me decide. You won't be disappointed with either model.

[bugsbear]

550 vs. 650 is a topic that comes up frequently. i started with a 550 and later bought a 650 with a case feeder. i have no regrets.

there are many people on the forum who have a lot more experience than me. your experience, mechanical ability and understanding of the process should be taken into consideration when deciding on machines.

learning to load requires total concentration. issues occur. i am in the group that believes the 550 with manual advance is better for a newbie. if you have an issue, simply pull out the case and do what needs to be done. if you start on a progressive, the process is more dificult.

some will say that you are wasting money because you will want a 650 later. this may be true. it depends upon how much you shoot. however, you can either sell the 550 (and get most of your month back) or keep it and have two presses!

i haven't figured out all of the secrets of the 650 press yet. therefore, i can proably put out as much, or more, on the 550 than the 650.

either choice you will be happy. ponder your situation and decide what works for you.

good luck.

nels

Edited November 21, 2010 by bugsbear

[flack jacket]

550 is good one for all the reasons explained above. It's very "manual" which allows you to see every "step" of the process and help avoid F-ups. Cheap/easy to change caliber. I started reloading with my dad almost 20 years ago, since then I inherited his two 550. Not really required, but I realized why dad bought 2 machines.

1 - Small primer

1 - Large primer

Both handle all the calibers I use and to appease the "laziness" of changing primer systems. Plus, they will never become obsolete, just improved upon. I'm tempted to get the case feeder.

Then...... If your round usages jumps up on 1 particular caliber such as mine (9mm) and feel that practical shooting is a lifelong passion.... Just move to the bigguns..... 1050 .. done.

[Foxbat]

Go 650. People often mention the advisability of learning the process on a simpler machine - I never subscribed to this notion. Reloading is not rocket science, no need to make it look more complicated than it really is. My first ever press was a progressive Hornady Pro 7, and I never regretted that choice... then came Dillon.

If one is still not sure he wants full progressive operation, he can run it one step at a time.