Sac Law Man Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I have bee a forum member for a few months now, and I am very impressed with the wealth of Knowledge displayed in some of the responses. Heres the question. In IDPA, which is a faster reload, a tactical reload or a reload with retention, (given you perform both well)? If you have to move immediatley after reloading,a tac reload would be faster, you can move while storing the previously used mag. But what if you have to shoot immediately following the reload? Also, where to store the mag, some say pants or in the belt, vest pocket of pant pocket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Sac, I always do a tac reload. I believe it will always suffice under the rules and it's easier for me to only do one kind of reload under stress. Takes about 3 seconds with my 1911. I always put the partial mag in my left front pants pocket. There again, it's always the same, no gimmicks. I usually wear cargo pants when shooting, but works almost as well with jeans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Sam, I agree with you, doing one type of reload is best, I favor the tac reload as well. I have been placing the used mag in my lower vest pocket, I am open for other options..Thanks for the reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Stick with one, or you'll get confused as to what you are doing. Also make sure you check the COF. If it states do a Tactical Reload, you have to do a tactical reload. If it said Reload With Retention, you can do either. I always use my shorts/pant pocket. It's always there even if you don't wear any concealment. I stop using my vest pocket because the vest will move around on you and sometimes the pocket doesn't end up where it's suppose to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryfox Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 A reload with retention is faster. But if you get confused trying to remember what type of reload to do and have a brain fart then your hands will stop moving as your brain goes "what do I do now?" This is never fast. I try to stick to the TAC reload to keep it simple. If you can work in an emergency reload without getting a procedural more power to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 I agree, between a tactical reload and a reload with retention, the reload with retention is faster. In most courses fire, especially COF's with lots of movement, the slide lock reload is the fastest way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Just as an aside on the whole issue of tac-vs-retention, I refer you to my article in the current HANDGUNS magazine, Walt Rauch's article in the previous issue of COMBAT HANDGUNS, the various articles in POLICE MARKSMAN, Ralph Mroz' great book DEFENSIVE SHOOTING FOR REAL-LIFE ENCOUNTERS and a host of other material... ...IDPA reloads are a death trap in the real world. Be careful what you program! Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 I agree with MBane, (and not just because I always seem to criticize IDPA....) I went through the FLETC instructor course last Spring, and was pleasantly surprised at how up to date their techniques were; NO WEAVER, but fluid modern ISO like the real top shooters use. Anyway, conspicuously absent was anything Rauch, Hackathorn or Wilson approved. In fact what the cadre called a Tac Load was what IPSC shooters do all the time and IDPA shooters are not allowed to do; Speed load the gun back up as fast as possible. We NEVER did any sort of retention anything on the clock or when there was a "threat" visible. Those techniques were for when the threat had been neutralized and you were safe. I agree with what I take to be MBane's point; Dogma is bad. (meaning no offense of course to our own Dogma Dog...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 GlockTalk: Handguns Magazine ;Tacload thread In IDPA, which is a faster reload, a tactical reload or a reload with retention, (given you perform both well)? the comparison tests we have run found the RwR about one to two seconds faster than the TL.This was during a static scenario ,w/o concealment. YMMV As far as the RW - that topic is off limits here MP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 IF you are shooting without moving after the reload, do a RwR. This means you hand only goes down with the mag to the pocket and comes back up with a new one. A single, round trip. If you tac, it goes down for the mag, back up to swap, back down to stow, back up to regrip. This is TWO roundtrips! Less movement is almost always faster! However, if you have to move or CAN move up on targets after the reload, then do a tac. This allows you to do one round trip (down for mag, up to swap) and once the mag is seated, you can move while you do teh second round trip (back down to stow, back up to regrip) while you CLOSE distance on your next target or shooting position. The key is that you can move as soon as the mag is seated in the gun. Make sense? OK, here's the caveat...if you get easily flustered, or go brain dead, you'll add time by trying to figure out which one you would be better off doing WHILE you are shooting. Not good. This is why many people just say heck with it and always tac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Shooting some big matches in a "super squad" last year a few of us observed that even top ranked Master shooters sometimes fumble Tac reloads sometimes costing valuable time. Previously I too had focused solely on becoming proficient with the TL vs trying to master both TL's and RWR's. I've rethought that strategy with regards to shooting IDPA. I started working RWR's back into my dry fire routine and live fire practice sessions. Once I felt fairly confident I could do either on demand proficiently w/out hesitation I shot the classifier and used both methods in stage three. There is a significant advantage to using RWR in string one and TL in string two. In matches where you're shooting to be competitive and the classifier I will use both to shave time. I won't delve into real world gun fights and TL's. That subject has been flogged to death. Let's leave that for other venues and not IDPA or USPSA threads where it's basically irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Mayo; Not sure I agree with you that the relevance of TL/RWR in the real world has no relevance as an IDPA thread, specifically because of the stated mission of IDPA. One of the goals of IDPA, as stated on the website, is, "To provide the shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulates potentially life threatening encounters or tests skills that would be required to survive life threatening encounters." We are talking about reloading techniques that have been discredited and discarded not only by police and military trainers, but by most of the former IDPA Board of Directors themselves. IDPA is correct in stating that "a sport is a sport." If that *other* shooting sport demands you to balance an egg on your head as you shoot each stage, so be it. However, if we tell people that balancing eggs on their head is a test of a skill that would be required to survive a life threatening encounter, we do those people a potentially fatal disservice. Back when I wrote a lot about high-risk sports in the big national magazines, I happened to run into a couple that had read one of my stories about training for and competing in the old Mammoth Mountain Kamakaze Downhill mountainbike race. I made it sound so funny and so much fun they went right out to Vail and dropped one of the trails I trained on off the back of the mountain. Not a trail a beginner should be on. She lost it, smacked a boulder and ended up a quad for the rest of her life. And no, I (and they) didn't think it was my *fault,* but it made me realize on a gut level that those of us who choose to teach--whether it's as a formal insturctor, as a writer or as match director--have a responsibility to understand both what we're teaching and the *implications* of what we're teaching. Rules can, and should, be changed. The only way we can change those rules is through threads like these. RANT MODE OFF... Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Micheal great show btw... When it comes to idpa some people will stand up for it till their death, no matter what, even if they are wrong.... So that is a battle you won't win. I agree that idpa is susposed to be training for real life, or that's how many people that shoot it feel. What people need to do is shoot more ipsc then they can unlearn the bad habit's that idpa is teaching them.....LOL just kidding guy's.... Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 OK drifters ...back on track now please... The question is: Which is faster? Tac. or rwt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 RWR is faster, not by much .3-.5 seconds is about it. used correctly (FOR THE GAME) it (rwr) is almost as fast as a SLR and often faster for the game. The Belt is the place to store the mag. Generally not the pocket, they change and may or may not be where you need them when you need them. The outside pocket of a vest is NOT the place to store it. Learn to store when moving, Sitting, squatting, kneeling etc it changes the whole thing. I learned them for the game as I too think they are utterly USELESS. Id rather be able to hit an 8" plate everytime at 200yds than know how to TL or RWR as well as I do! I can come up with a situation that I might need the former. JMHO of course! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 when you say the belt, you put them back in an empty mag pouch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I think he means tuck the mag in the waste band. It works fine if you are trim. Even just a little belly can make that difficult and you certianly have to standup straight and suck in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Well, just loose 10 lbs and stick in in the waistband, it by far faster than pocket or mag pouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 The waist band is correct. And you DO NOT have to be trim. I know a few that have a large BELLY and still manage to do it, quite well in fact. Follow the contour of your "belly" right into the the waist (or waste ) band and your set to go. Once its in you follow the belt to the spare mag and your there. The problem with the pocket is really simple, youre CCW garment ALWAYS seems to be in the way. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockton Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I agree that idpa is susposed to be training for real life, or that's how many people that shoot it feel. Actually....its just a game! A fun one, but a game... Otherwise, there wouldn't be a timer! I always get a kick out of the "it's training crowd". You want training, go to T Ranch, Gsite, or any of the other big schools. Otherwise, realize your are just playing a game and be happy. Just be glad you are one of those golfing "weirdos"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted March 14, 2004 Author Share Posted March 14, 2004 Thanks for all the input guys.. great information.. I have decided to get proficient at tactical reloads..As far as where do I put the spent mag, I am not decided yet..I am in good shape (No belly) however, the waisteband just doesnt work for me, although I believe its the best place to store the mag in order to save time from your score. I will keep working on the waisteband, and keep using pants pocket unitl I get it worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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