What's more dangerous, Equipment creep or division creep

[Aristotle]

Edited to clarify: My intent was to address shooters who's goal is to become more competitive, and who's goals are to advance and become better as a shooter and to climb the ranks.

Very early on shooting, I was one of "those guys" that was super enthusiastic with shooting. I came in guns blazing, first match was a good match for me and that powered my enthusiasm to becoming a USPSA shooter. Now I see it time to time with a lot of newer shooters. Almost the same transformation as I had gone through. They get the gamer bug, and every match they start showing up, and looking more and more like a shooter. The pancake holster gets swapped out for a kydex. They eventually get enough pouches and magazines. The work boots/tennis shoes get swapped out for cleats. The construction glasses get swapped out for something nicer, and the back packs get swapped out for actual range bags. It's a cool transformation to see, almost like seeing a butterfly cracking out of the cocoon. Their guns also get prettier and prettier, with the modifications to match. Some realize their "dual purpose" carry/game gun may not be the most ideal and opt for a full time game gun. My then stock G17 which was to serve this purpose, turned into a transformer. And eventually, you start seeing their names float from one division to another.

Two of the bigger "temptations", at least in my experience towards the development of the shooter, is equipment creep aka the relentless pursuit to hardware upgrading (which, I admit is very fun) and division creep, aka what's this guy going to shoot this week. Not everyone does, but I'd say a slight majority will.

I equate it to, moving to China, and not only trying to learn Chinese, but in every dialect, at the same time. Sure you'll learn it, it'll just take you much longer, if you remain persistent. But can be very discouraging otherwise.

It really wasn't until two guys began harping on me, that it really hit me. I had to stick to something, and learn that training is the only thing that's going to get me to realize my goals. And after the first year I did stick to something, is when I noticed traction towards my goal of becoming "competitive". I try to at least stick to a division for a year now, and try and stay away from the classifieds, lol. And from what I see, the most competitive guys out there are the guys that at least stick to the same division for any length in time. It's when they start switching platforms that really trips them up.

So what do you see is the most distracting, equipment creep, or division creep?

Edited November 10, 2010 by Aristotle

[Corey]

i think division creep would be more distracting. this was my first year and my gun has evolved a lot over this season. thats just knowing/thinking of something that can improve your game. switching divisions can be tricky, depends how far you switch. Switching full gun platforms is the bad one, at least in my mind. Ive been shooting Single Stack all year and toward the end of the year, began to shoot classifiers in L-10, but with the same rig, so its wasnt a big change. At an end of the year classifier match, I shot my buddy's Glock in Limited and that didnt work out too well . trigger reset threw me off the most i think. Im planning to continue to shoot Single Stack for the first half of next year, then maybe step into Limited. while its a new division, i'd be shooting a 2011, so its not a huge difference in platform for me. equipment creep is good for your game (if the add-ons are worth it). division/platform creep can hurt if you cant adjust quickly

[beltjones]

I think you're mis-defining it. I think there is the danger of changing equipment, and then there is the danger of switching guns.

Changing equipment (holsters, glasses, range bags, cleats, pouches, etc) is no where near as confusing as switching guns - even if you stay in the same division. Likewise, if you shoot a 1911 and switch between Single Stack and Limited 10, or you shoot a G35 and you switch between production and L10, I don't see that as being a big deal at all. So the real issue is changing the actual gun, not the division.

[Merlin Orr]

So what is your individual goal?

IMO there is no doubt that staying with the same platform and shooting a single sport is much more productive if your goal is rising in "the ranks" and working toward a specific goal or achievement.

However, .... If your goal is to enjoy shooting - and you are NOT fixated on being a GM in this or a Master in that - you might have a lot more fun shooting "competitively" with 8 or 10 different guns with widely varying types of different equipment.

I can't imagine giving up any one of the sports I play/shoot in. If this means others will kick my ass in this or that division of whatever single discipline they choose to specialize in I (so far) have been able to deal with it...

So.. I am happier being a Jack of all Trades and a Master of None and getting to shoot all kinds of neat toys in all kinds of neat games.

.02 from me.

[Airedale]

Merlin nailed it.

If your goal is GM, get the best gear you can afford and live and breath that division. Dryfire every day and so on.

If your goal is to have fun and you want to spend time with your family or dogs, shoot the division you want.

The retirement check from USPSA is the same for the GM as is is for the D shooter.

Dave

[Loves2Shoot]

I guess I just don't understand why switching around is a "dangerous" thing to do. I've learned a lot from shooting different platforms, divisions, and sports and I think they all make me an overall better shooter. You may get better quicker with one gun, one division, but my observations are that you may tend to stall sooner also. Staying interested and paying attention are very important if you want to get better. I like the idea of being able to pick up ANY gun and being able to shoot it well also.

[edwin garcia]

Ari,

It's whatever makes you happy. Some folks have a roomful of guns that they want to shoot in ipsc,idpa,steel matches, NRA, etc.

Some folks will just stick to 1 division, 1 gun and hone their skill.

I see it as being a doctor. You can be a General Practitioner, where you can treat most of the diseases common to man.

But you're not a specialist-say, dermatologist, where you can diagnose rare skin diseases.

The good thing about shooting sports like ipsc is accommodates these group of folks.

On the other hand, I've seen top dogs move from one division to another with ease. No steep learning curve like we mortals do.

But again, that's why they're in the super squad...

2Cents

[Jman]

and the back packs get swapped out for actual range bags.

...unless of course it's my back pack.

[Aristotle]

I think you're mis-defining it. I think there is the danger of changing equipment, and then there is the danger of switching guns.

Changing equipment (holsters, glasses, range bags, cleats, pouches, etc) is no where near as confusing as switching guns - even if you stay in the same division. Likewise, if you shoot a 1911 and switch between Single Stack and Limited 10, or you shoot a G35 and you switch between production and L10, I don't see that as being a big deal at all. So the real issue is changing the actual gun, not the division.

Well, for instance. Going from Open to Production, or Single stack, to revolver. Sure it also means a change in equipment, but with Open and production, I could theoretically set up a G17, and have an Open top end. Or Have an STI, and have an Open top end. The danger is really the mentality from having to rethink your strategy for reloads, major/minor PF and tactics all together.

For a seasoned shooter, maybe not such a big deal. But for newer, 1st year shooters, a much bigger deal getting the hang of the game all together.

[ControlTheGun]

Interesting thoughts. I have stayed with the same gun platform for the last five years and see myself improving every year with it. There are guys that I shoot with that when I first got serious about competition could easily beat me but now I have surpassed them. I believe one of the reasons is that they change guns almost every year.

[Aristotle]

Yes, that's very true, and I admit that went over my head. A lot more are into this purely for fun. And I don't mean to dog anyone that isn't, everyone has the right to their own goals.

I suppose I should have been more clear with my initial post in saying " for those seeking to advance, or become more competitive... " which was my initial intent of the discussion. Because I have met a lot of newer shooters lately, who's #1 goal is to be competitive. I have not been shooting too long myself, but I have to say, in the past year there have been a lot of newer shooters that are very good, with tremendous potential.

I'm competitive by nature. I grew up with brothers and good friends that we have always been competitive with each other. To me, that is where the fun is.

Again, not trying to say that this is the only goal in shooting, I hope this straighten this out.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Aristotle

[Loves2Shoot]

But for newer, 1st year shooters, a much bigger deal getting the hang of the game all together.

But if you don't try them all, how are you supposed to know which one you like best? They are all shooting the same course, but they all have a different experience.

[Aristotle]

But for newer, 1st year shooters, a much bigger deal getting the hang of the game all together.

But if you don't try them all, how are you supposed to know which one you like best? They are all shooting the same course, but they all have a different experience.

true true

I guess the saying that comes to mind is the story of the two bulls sitting on top of the hill looking at the cows... :-)

[jid2]

I'm new, and in this just to have fun while shooting - and competing is always fun for me. I picked one division, open, because that's where I feel the fun is and I like to tinker with stuff. I showed up with my cleats, range bag, and open gun from the get go. First match I just took it easy, tried to be safe and was really wondering if I would be able to hit the A-zones on a real COF. I scored good point slowly for open class. Next time out I'll start to add some speed - game on .

Edited November 10, 2010 by jid2

[Xfactor]

Good topic, Ari... I think the "pitfalls" of changing gear (but shooting the same division) and changing divisions are a bit different:

Regarding changing gear, sometimes folks end up spending a lot of money and doing a lot of T&E in the quest for the right combination of gear and gun-setup that will "make them more competitive." But I don't think this will necessarily set someone back in the advancement curve - provided that the time is still taken to ensure reliability and proficiency with each "new and improved" piece of equipment. (And to be fair, some of those equipment changes actually DO facilitate better shooting! ; )

For those who enjoy tinkering with their gear, this process is probably part of the fun... maybe they even get bored if they don't. But for others who don't have the interest (or time, or money) to perpetually tinker, finding the gun-setup/gear that fits them well and practicing with it will be just fine too.

Ont he other hand, I think most Division changes require a substantial adjustment - especially to/ from Open (or even more so, Revolver). For that reason, if a newer shooter is looking improve their match results, then switching Divisions would be the bigger pitfall.

But as others have said, shooting different guns is often part of the fun... and, sometimes it takes playing around in a Division for a while to decide whether it's where you really want to be.

[benos]

To me, Merlin covered it all.

be

[Don Springer]

But for newer, 1st year shooters, a much bigger deal getting the hang of the game all together.

But if you don't try them all, how are you supposed to know which one you like best? They are all shooting the same course, but they all have a different experience.

true true

I guess the saying that comes to mind is the story of the two bulls sitting on top of the hill looking at the cows... :-)

I love that story.

Don

[twodownzero]

I don't think that's necessarily true. I see different things in this game when I shoot stages with my Single Stack vs. my limited gun. Do I sometimes wish for a 20 round magazine when I shoot Single Stack? Sure. But I learn more concrete stage breakdown in Single Stack, which transitions somewhat over to Limited. In Limited, I focus less on the reloads and more on movement/shooting, which helps in every division as well.

I'm only a C class shooter, but changing between Limited and Single Stack has helped me see the game differently, prioritize what is really important to perform better, etc.

I stopped shooting production because I realized shooting a minor/striker fired gun wasn't enjoyable and had sufficient differences from the single actions that I enjoy shooting in SS and Limited that I just wanted to stick to single action.

Division and equipment are over emphasized on this forum a lot. What really matters is seeing the sights and trigger press. At least for my stage in this game.

I do notice that my 2011 kicks more than the 1911, but that's something I feel in my wrists and forearms--the picture of the sights lifting and going back into the rear notch is the same either way...especially since both of my guns have a Dawson front sight on them now.

[bikerburgess]

I think changing arround divisions and guns can help

In the long run. In the short term you can point shoot better but in the long run you start using and trusting your sights and what you see. It can also make this game more interesting for those of us with attention span issues

May not be true fore everyone but seems to be working for me

[HoMiE]

When I first got into practical pistol, I thought it was an equipment race and that's why I stayed away for so long. Once I started, I got the speed holster and extended magazines and put a magwell on my glock. Then I realized it is a totally different set of skills if you want to be competitive. Everybody is in it for different reasons. Once you learn the fundamentals, you can pretty much go out and shoot any gun or division. The journey is usually more fun than the destination where ever it is you want to go.

[Flexmoney]

Having only read the opening post...

Pick one and practice.

[alpha-charlie]

To me, Merlin covered it all.

be

I'd have to agree. I've noticed, as well as many others, that there's different types of shooters in this sport. I've noticed a pretty big breakdown of "types" of shooters in this sport. Basically I think it ranges all the way from those that are highly competitive and wish to achieve greatness someday, all the way to those that just enjoy the commaradarie of other shooters (the greatest people in the world ) and could care less if they ever improve or what their results are. It's in this huge breakdown of "different" shooters that I think Merlin hit on the head, with shooting whatever brings you enjoyment if that's why you're out there. I think Flex got it right as far as shooters who want to be great at this game. So, to the original question of which is more dangerous, equipment or division creep, I think it depends on what kind of shooter you are and what your long term goals are (if any).

Note: I'm not implying that one type of shooter is of more importance than another or any nonsense like that. All shooters are important and are needed in this great sport.

Edited November 14, 2010 by alpha-charlie

[dupemaster]

I think Merlin nailed it. It really depends on the person.

I am brand new to this sport (first match last weekend), but come from a competitive background. I've played nearly every sport out there and some to a fairly high level. In college I had a great coaching staff who drilled into all of our heads that you always do your best, that's where you have fun.

To me, doing my best is to master what I do. I find it hard to master something while constantly changing things around. Mastering something means starting at the bottom, equipment and all, and working up to maximum potential. By limiting equipment upgrades, I force myself to get better with what I have. It forces fundamentals.

While I am doing this to fill me need for competition with others (winning), my need to compete with myself is greater. If I'm not getting better there is no point for me to be there, I'll not be having fun. Once a point is reached where I can't get any better with the equipment I have, its time to upgrade. In this game upgrading can often lead to a division change as well. So, I think for the purpose of this thread, that equipment creep can be more detrimental to the goal of getting better than division creep. I feel that equipment won't make me better. It may make me more competitive among others, but wont make me execute fundamentals any better.

If your goal is just to have fun, it won't matter. Just do what you want.

In the long run I'm here to have fun, meet some great people (shooters are some of the best) and make myself a better shooter. I cant play golf any more, so I need something else I can torture myself with.

And, I'm spent.

I'll probably be along to change this as I get more experience under my belt and my perspective changes.

[Ron Ankeny]

Pick one and practice.

I agree. Pick one gun in each division and practice.