Single stage press versus multi for precision loads

[seabyrd6]

Hello, I am curious, why do the bench rest guys suggest single stage presses over multi for their reloading. Does that mean that businesses like Black Hills and Hornady take the time to single stage load their millions of rounds, I presume some of their reloading is done on multi stage presses, but what about the really nice rifle stuff. I understand that the charge has to be right on, that can not be gotten with a multi stage press, if you are careful it seems like it could be done. Anybody know, thanks

[gunnut315]

The bench rest people are looking for the exact smae performance shot to shot. This is not as important we can live with 20 to 50 fps differance for handgun rounds. If you are shooting less than 100 rounds a week a single stage will do you fine. When I go out with my sf we shoot at least 500 a day so I use a progressive but for my hunting that I only shoot 15 rounds a year I use an old single stage that I hand measure each load.

[Pat Miles]

Benchrest shooters are looking for the as near perfect consistency in every aspect of their reloading. They load at the shoot so they can adjust powder volume for conditions at the range (temp, humidity,etc,). Before the reloading process starts each cartridge has the inside of the case neck with a stiff nylon brush to remove any muck muck after which the entire case is cleaned with the likes of Never Dull. The presses they use are set up for only two of the loading operations, decapping and neck sizing which also consists of bumping the shoulder of the cartridge back a couple of thousandths. Full length resizing is not needed as each case is fire formed in the actual chamber it will be shot in for the length of its life.The primer pocket is then cleaned and then a hand priming unit is used to seat the new benchrest primer. After doing this the cartridge is individually charged with powder from a super precise and usually expensive powder measure (Harrels comes to mind) and from there over to a seperate bullet seating press that is also very precise. Cartridge overall length is kept to a precise length so the distance from the bullet to or into the lands of the barrel is the same every round. Surprisingly, this routine take very little time to accomplish between each string.

As we are not shooting for best five shot group size at 100 and 200 yards we do not need to be so precise in our loading. this is where a progressive press shines over a single stage. Loading 500 rounds in an evening is a cake walk so I can practice during the week and shoot a weekend match.

Pat

[seabyrd6]

So do the massive reloaders- Black Hills and Hornady use a line of single stage presses?

[gunnut315]

No they use state of art large volume machines. Most of thier loads are made with new brass. The powder they use is not usually avaible to reloaders. The bullets are usually avaible in smaller quanities.

[h2osport]

Some precision rifle loads at large manufacturers are loaded on single stage presses. Most are loaded on presses that cost lots of $. I know of one custom press for rifle loads that is $60,000.

I have also heard of dropping the powder in multiple drops to get a more accurate measure on large volume machines.

I know that dillon says that their powder measure would not get within 0.5 grains at my volume and powder for 300 win mag. For that load I am looking for less than 0.1 gr accuracy. I load my long range rifle loads on a single stage and trickle every powder charge.

Randy

[seabyrd6]

So is this a possible- that making the powder charge consistant (use a more precise powder measure than a Dillon) and use new brass could one then use the multi stage press to get very consistant loads. Now reloads would be different because of the shell. But the multi stage press could perfrom to the level of the single stage, I presume that the $60k machines are multi stage, they are for precise volume in a short amount of time.

Edited November 10, 2010 by seabyrd6

[dillon]

FWIW, the US Army Marksmanship Unit and the US Palma Team use Dillon equipment to load their ammunition. The key to assembling accurate rifle ammunition is more in the component choice and die adjustments. Very few benchrest shooters weigh powder charges, almost all use a thrown charge.On the other hand, they will weigh, inspect, check the internal volume on 100 pieces of brass to find 10-20 pieces that are within a few percent of each other in internal volume. The key to a consistant powder drop is to have the same volume of powder dropped each time.The internal volume of brass varies more from one piece to the next than the powder charge ever will.The volume-to volume ratio is more critical than the weight of powder dispensed. This can easily be checked by an individual by weighing and loading 10 rounds of ammo, then load another 10 rounds using a thrown powder charge. Now let someone else shoot two five-shot groups, only labelling the ammo as "lot A" and "Lot B".

At one time I tore apart and weighed everything of 20 rounds of LC .308 match ammo. The total powder variation from the lightest to the heaviest charge was .74 grains, and the ammo appeared to have been loaded with IMR-4895.

[Amerflyer48]

I have found with my rifles and my mid-range wad cutters in a S&W 52 it comes down to case preparation as dillon said.

Actually when doing rifle and mid-range I use my Dillon 450 but not as an all out progressive more of a 2 step process.

A. clean and check settings on dies, zero scale..

1. I tumble and sort the brass by head stamp (rifle) then resize and decap..... the "52" has its own dedicated weighed,trimmed and uniformed brass...

2. trim, inspect, clean flash hole/uniform etc. as necessary lube rifle casings

3. check scale,adjust powder measure and throw 10 charges, to settle the press down and establish a cadence..

4. layout brass,bullets load primer tube and get in "the zone" creating a good cadence and consistent press stroke approximately half way through pull and check charge,.. larger batches get 10 pulled at random for measurement and weight checks at the end of session..

5. inspect loaded rounds mark with sharpie and store.. note load session in master notebook , cliff notes copy with ammo

If you want to know how your reloading technique is, load ammo for a S&W 52 that pistol can be demanding ... but the 450/550 is plenty capable.

I think of it this way.. as long as your press strokes are the same there has to be less variables than with a single stage which needs 3-4 times the number of strokes and hand charging the cases or trickling powder which may work for you style of reloading...

I spent a some time one summer back in the early 90's and made a few 20 round batches trying everything,20 worrying about case prep,then 20 worrying about bullet weight,20 trickling powder, and running 20 on the dillon,case prepped and 20 with no case prep..all from the same lot of new brass.. my conclusion was case prep affects me most ,..your results may be different...

Try it if you have access to both machines.. my conclusion,.. properly setup machines with good reloading practices will work either single stage or progressive ammo is only one of the multitudes of variables we as shooters face,. and some of it is internal psycology which I will wager is why most benchrest shooters do what they do to build confidence which is, a pretty big variable come match day..

Black Hills establishes confidence by having its sterling reputation as "THE Factory Ammo" I have never seen how they make their ammo or what machinery / techniques they use but I will bet it comes down to properly setup machines and good reloading practices executed consistently with several quality checks along the way....

Cheers

John

Edited November 10, 2010 by Amerflyer48

[seabyrd6]

Thanks for the valuabe insights- I guess my 550, with the redding 223 competition die set, and get a good powder measure and scale, carefully setup then I should be good to go. And check for "roll out"- Charlie