When is an equipment upgrade worth it ?

[Big Daddy's BBQ]

I currently am a new USPSA shooter in Limited 10. Springfield XD .40 Tactical with a Springer precision trigger. First I'd like to state that I know I'm not close to outshooting this weapon. My question is at what point is it time to make a move to a 1911 style ? This is more just out of curiousity to get peoples opinions. I know I need to practice etc etc. I love my xd, just curious as to if there is a point it would hold a shooter back. Yes Im bored.

[bayoupirate]

I shot my Glock for two years.

I didn't want to make the switch to a 2011, but so many of my shooting friends kept suggesting it that I finally gave in and tried it. It took about one hour to transition and beat my speed with the glock.

I took the 2011 and my glock to the range.

I shot a series of steel plate runs to establish a baseline of what I could do with the glock. Fastest possible, fastest dependably and I assess the amount of effort (grip force and recovery) it took to perform these runs.

I took a short break and got out the 2011. A friend had built a 6" gun and didn't like it. He was willing to sell it. I tried it and immediately I felt that it was a little nose heavy. I continued to run the gun and in less than an hour, I had topped my glock times and felt that it was taking less effort to run the gun.

I did buy that gun, and had the slide machined and lightened to loose the nose heavy condition.

Borrow someone's 2011. Don't just shoot 10 rounds. Go to the range for a full session.

there is a learning curve. Once you're beyond that, you'll be able to decide for yourself if the upgrade is worth it.

Good luck.

[rjennings10]

I base it on comfort. I prefer shooting my glock 34 over any 1911 or my tanfoglio limited. For me it has a natural point of aim and I can consistently get a high grip. You can win any division without converting to a 2011. I run my 34 in production and limited/10 and most always place top 5 overall at the matches I go to.

Why do you feel you should upgrade?

[sirveyr]

IMO, there is really no need to "upgrade" to a 2011. Many people running 2011's get defeated by polymer guns all the time. As you know, it's the shooter, not the gun that does the defeating. It is all about what you can shoot well. I have both platforms and they are completely different animals. Neither one is "better" just different. One thing I like about the polymer guns is that they are slightly more affordable to start shooting <insert action pistol sport here> with.

[Big Daddy's BBQ]

Honestly I really dont think I should at this point. I mean I can't outshoot what im using. Just wondering if by some miracle I got really taleneted with my XD, is there a point where it holds you back. Just curiousity for the most part and interested in getting opinions. (and since my wife isnt looking I'm just looking for an excuse to build a 6 inch STI)

[MarkCO]

In some part, that is the beauty of divisions and classifications in USPSA. Your gun/skill combination fits in a window in which you compete. Improve skill, go to a different window, switch platforms, go to a different window. If you like what you have, stick with it, practice and have fun. A "better" piece of equipment within a particular division "might" move tou up in class, but then again, probably not.

I see a LOT of people who chase the next best thing instead of practicing. Perfect trigger control, which is the root of most things in shooting, and you will be fine.

[bayoupirate]

Hope no one read my post and thought that I was baised against stock out-of-the-box guns.

Everyone playing this game should aready know that any of the GM's can take you gun and beat you with it.

It is the person, not the gun, that wins.

Just like all other things in life, vehicles, clothes, music, etc..., it's what fits you and feels best for you.

That's what you should shoot.

but don't hesitate at the opportunity to have a test drive of someone else's gear.

[Big Daddy's BBQ]

I want to thank you guys for your input. I've decided to just practice and be the best i can be with what ive got. I may just upgrade my holster(using a deactivated SERPA) and have fun. Having said that i still may piece together parts for the dream gun when theyre at a good price.....Just in case I found a cr holster for the xd at shooters connection, i may just go ahead and grab that.. I have to say that this is one of the most informative and helpful forums Ive ever been a part of. I thank you all in advance for the help im sure I'll get in the future.

[Seth]

2 reasons....

1. If you're out running your existing equipment OR

2. Upgrade rejuvenates interest, gets you excite and make you want to shoot.

Its supposed to make you happy, remember?

[JimmyZip]

Seth, that spoke directly to me. It is why I went from shooting a TS and now shoot a G17 in production. The Glock is a bit tougher to shoot, but for some reason, I just like it better. It has kept me shooting. the idea of shooting a stock gun as well as possible just really gets me going and feeds my desire to shoot. I have tons of good .40 ammo loaded, and that TS is just sitting this year. Something about that 17, just gets me.

I guess a downgrade was in order?

[calishootr]

wow, seth got it just about right, we are constantly in a mode of change, for those of us that have been doing this sport awhile(me, 21 yrs) i have BOXES of what used to be the latest and greates new widgit on the market that is going to enable the person to do lofty things, again it comes down to the PERSON, not the equipment per say...I, at one point was basically 'bored' shooting open for so long, switched up to shoot limited, what an eye opener for me, shot limited for a while and am now back shooting open better than ever, have i given up on looking for the next greatest widgit??? nope hehehe

[Chris iliff]

I don't think even the very best of us can "out shoot our guns". As long as the gun is fairly accurate and fits you that is.

The more I learn the more I realize that it's almost always me.

With that said, I've changed and bought all kinds of stuff over the years. It is a process.

[smokshwn]

There is absolutely no limits (high or low) as to when it is time to switch platforms.

The fact is that each division and each platform has things to teach you about your skill level with respect to shooting fundamentals. You do not need to "outshoot" your current gear in order to upgrade/change it.

Do what you desire....if it makes you happy, you will most likely shoot/practice more which in the end is what will make you better regardless of the tool in your hand.

[G-ManBart]

The timer knows, and shows all! I know what works for me, but nobody can say what will work best for you. If you think a change might help you get better, it's worth considering. If you can borrow an example of what you're considering, even better...you should get an idea pretty quickly if it shows promise. R,

[1911Prof]

I'm with Seth. This game is (almost) all mental. If you like a gun, you are more likely to enjoy what you are doing. Just believing that the gun is better will help your score.

[Sean Gaines]

with out reading the previous posts. to answer the question. When it fails, or when you find that something that works better and you can gain an advantage.

[lcs]

Glock/XD/M&P are great guns, but you will never be able to get one of those guns to mimic a 2011 trigger. You have a lot more options when it comes to 2011 platforms, but It all boils down to what YOU want and are happy with. I believe (for the average competitor, the grip angle of a 2011 offers a major advantage over a glock. For the $$$ you'd spend on a STI/SVI you can practice a hell of more with plastic gun, but

If you look at the stats, most competitiors use a 2011 platform in limited.

[Jman]

Who once said..."pick one and practice" ?

[barobinson]

I don't think you need to upgrade. The Springfield is a great gun, I shoot a Glock and have seen no advantages to 1911's even in accuracy. They just give me less rounds. Stick with the Springfield you will be just fine with it

[waxman]

When I started this game, I shot a xd tactical in production, I practiced a fair amount, but never got out of B class. I was finally able to afford a used SV. I was so proud of the gun, and it was so much easier to shoot better with. (mostly do to a 1.5# trigger). My first match with the gun was a classifier match. I immediately made B class in limited. I had only trained with the gun for a week. In my mind, it was a much better platform. I have been shooting for about 3.5 years now, and have almost exclusively shot 2011's or 1911's in that time. This last fall, I had to shoot plastic again, while my SV was getting worked on. I was amazed at how much more effort was required to shoot these guns well, Just the time on target waiting for that long trigger pull, seemed to add seconds to every run. I was very happy to have my good trigger back when my gun returned. I recently received my New 2011. The new gun has a tungston barrel sleave that dampens felt recoil like nothing I have ever seen. I still have the great trigger and less recoil to contend with. I am extremely excited to shoot next year with this new pistol,and to train with it. I love just holding it, I even like dry firing it. In my opinion, the 19/2011 is better for this game. I know I will get flamed for this, but I often wonder just how dominating Sevigney, and Vogel would be, if they spent all of their training time on a 2011.

Edited December 8, 2010 by waxman

[Kyle O]

Being a new shooter, I'd shoot what you have. Like stated, transition time is minimal, but you've got something now. Shoot it until your skills push against your equipment.

I shot production/ss/L10 with a Sig, and a 1911 for the last 3 years. Not classified yet, but match scores show me shooting high B. Only now have I decided to order a 2011.

To be picked up in Feb BTW

[Jman]

I often wonder just how dominating Sevigney, and Vogel would be, if they spent all of their training time on a 2011.

I could not disagree more. One could easily ask, how many matches would have been won had you devoted

yourself to the mastery of the equipment you had? The two gents you mention have dominated, utterly, for years

due to this same mastery.

Jim

[twodownzero]

Perhaps it's not as fancy of an answer as everyone else's, but my answer to your question is, "when you're no longer willing to tolerate anything but a single action trigger."

I can shoot faster and more accurately with a single action than with any other gun. I love my M&P, but only because it's as close as I can get to a 1911 without having a single action gun in my hand.

I have owned nearly every popular type of handgun. Before I bought a 1911, I was convinced that the 1911 was antiquated, outdated, that 8 rounds wasn't enough, or that 90+ years of technology had rendered it obsolete. As such, I bought two Sigs, an HK, Glocks, etc.

What I discovered is that most of them were attempts at trying to mimic the best features of the 1911, but add double column magazines, or a trigger system that didn't require carrying cocked and locked, or some other modern solution to non-existent problems.

Maybe America is stuck in its ways, but we love the 1911. It's popular for a reason. It works. It's not antiquated, outdated, or obsolete, because few meaningful innovations have happened in the last 100 years besides figuring out how to make the 1911 more reliable, accurate, ergonomic, and easy to use.

The 2011 style gun is intended to give the same "feel" but with a double stack magazine. I put a short trigger in mine and now it feels like a 1911 to me.

My suggestion is to stay away from the 1911 if you like your XD. For me, ignorance was bliss. I had no idea how much easier it was to shoot with a handgun that only requires 1/8" of trigger movement to set it off. And the faster you shoot, the more important and beneficial the lighter + shorter trigger pull becomes. That's not to say that nobody can master a striker fired system, because the big boys like Vogel, Sevigny, and even our very own Flexmoney and Micah have both demonstrated that they can rock out with their Glocks out.

For the rest of us mortals, the secret--the one factor that makes it easier to keep the sights where we want them before the bullet leaves the bore--is the single action trigger system.

After that, the rest is details. Cutting the sear and hammer to make it crisper or tuning the sear spring to make it lighter just make it that much better.

So the best answer to your question? Like I said, when you won't tolerate anything else. And, if before then, you find a single action gun that you like even better (CZ/Tangfo style comes to mind, but there are others), maybe never.

As long as you have sufficient gun handling skills to safely run a gun that has 1/8" of trigger travel and requires you to sweep a safety off on the draw, you are ready for a 1911 style gun. I always start new shooters with a rimfire, then a striker fired gun, and then a single action if they progress. The 1911 is the professional's gun. It is not a gun well suited to people who like to keep their booger hook on the bang switch, or those who do not have a natural enough draw to remember to sweep off the safety. This is, unfortunately, why many law enforcement officers do not have the privilege of carrying the 1911 on duty--those who make policy think that these are liabilities. In the wrong hands, they might be, but so might any type of firearm. The key is to train yourself so that doing the right thing is automatic. After that, you can begin to enjoy the features that make the 1911 so popular among competitive shooters.

But perhaps I'm biased. I sold my Sigs, HK, and Glocks. If I have a gun on me--it's cocked and locked.

Remember, this is just my opinion. Everyone else may have progressed differently.

If the real question is "when is an equipment upgrade worth it?" the best answer is probably never, since the best shooters can beat us with any piece of equipment. I do concur with the position of "when it rejuvenates interest" only because it will get you to want to shoot more, which will inevitably make you better so long as the practice is good practice.

In other words...enjoy shooting. The skill will come. For many, it's come much faster than for me. Some shooters were new here last winter or so, and kicking my ass by the summer. But I am progressing at my own pace and I see my own improvement every match. I have personal goals and that's what's important to me.

I often wonder just how dominating Sevigney, and Vogel would be, if they spent all of their training time on a 2011.

I could not disagree more. One could easily ask, how many matches would have been won had you devoted

yourself to the mastery of the equipment you had? The two gents you mention have dominated, utterly, for years

due to this same mastery.

Jim

Vogel made GM with a basically stock Glock 17...in Open.

If you don't think a red dot and a comp would make him faster, I'd beg to differ.

Sometimes, equipment does make a difference. The problem, as I see it, is that some of the people in this sport are so much better than us, that you wonder what their motivation would be to get better if they can achieve the highest levels of competition even without the fancy tools that others use.

Obviously nobody would suggest that shooting a box stock G17 in open would be the fast track to GM.

But few of us would doubt that if time, match entry fees, and ammo were free, that just about anyone could become a good shooter, perhaps even a great shooter, given nothing but that same G17 and a boatload (300,000 rounds or so) of ammo.

It's all relative, I think. But I do suspect that at their levels, competing with a gun that they can physically run faster would make them faster.

Equipment can hardly ever hold you back from the top of the game...but that doesn't mean that different equipment couldn't make your strengths shine even more.

Although I've looked over Bob Vogel's shoulder while he's shooting. I've seen him beat high level open shooters with a basically stock Glock 24. I was holding the timer and I read the shot count off of it, so I know how good he is. Perhaps you're right. Maybe he's so good that it doesn't matter what's in his hand.

I do know, however, that when you read 32-33 shots off of a timer, on a stage with movement, in 15 seconds, with a major PF gun and 3 reloads, it really changes your perspective on how good someone like that is, though.

Edited December 8, 2010 by twodownzero

[Jman]

See post #18

Jim

[JoshF]

My question is at what point is it time to make a move to a 1911 style ? Yes Im bored.

Only reason I can think of is if your current gun is not reliable. If it is then nothing is holding you back... practice...

Bored? Sounds like you got time to practice

Edited December 8, 2010 by JoshF