Couple of questions

[GrumpyOne]

Ok, I know the rules say no external modifications to a gun in production, but what if you found a way to remove metal (read weight) from inside the slide, leaving the external look of the slide pristine? Legal? Illegal? Why?

Next question: What if you found a temp sensitive powder, that got slower as it got colder (theorhetically making it softer shooting/lower PF at lower temps), but was within range of the PF when at normal temps. At the beginning of the match, could you give your random sampling to the chrono guy, then put the rest in an ice box with dry ice, lowering the temp, till just before you were to shoot your stage? Legal? Illegal? Why?

Question about classifiers: Say you are shooting a 40 S&W in Production, with major PF ammo. If you shoot a classifier with it, why wouldn't that same classifier score count in Limited/Limited 10 if you were going to shoot the exact same set up? Or would you have to shoot the classifier 3 times, with the same gun, same ammo, to get a score for each?

[Jman]

Ok, I know the rules say no external modifications to a gun in production, but what if you found a way to remove metal (read weight) from inside the slide, leaving the external look of the slide pristine? Legal? Illegal? Why? Illegal. Rule 21.2b dis-allows milling the slide for anything other than sight installation.

Next question: What if you found a temp sensitive powder, that got slower as it got colder (theorhetically making it softer shooting/lower PF at lower temps), but was within range of the PF when at normal temps. At the beginning of the match, could you give your random sampling to the chrono guy, then put the rest in an ice box with dry ice, lowering the temp, till just before you were to shoot your stage? Legal? Illegal? Why?

Illegal. That would be changing (altering) the ammunition used after it's been tested. Can't quote a specific rule.

Question about classifiers: Say you are shooting a 40 S&W in Production, with major PF ammo. If you shoot a classifier with it, why wouldn't that same classifier score count in Limited/Limited 10 if you were going to shoot the exact same set up? Or would you have to shoot the classifier 3 times, with the same gun, same ammo, to get a score for each? I asked this one too way back. Each division requires it's own seperate score. Why? A wild guess, probably money (three fees instead of one) that and some small equipment variations. I suppose one "could" mount up their "major PF Production legal rig", buy 3 classifiers sheets, shoot the classifier and submit the same result on all three??? maybe, but wouldn't recommend it.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Jman

[JAFO]

Next question: What if you found a temp sensitive powder, that got slower as it got colder (theorhetically making it softer shooting/lower PF at lower temps), but was within range of the PF when at normal temps. At the beginning of the match, could you give your random sampling to the chrono guy, then put the rest in an ice box with dry ice, lowering the temp, till just before you were to shoot your stage? Legal? Illegal? Why?

Also, if someone saw you pulling your mags from a dry ice bed just prior to shooting, you could be required to have your ammo retested. App C2 #28:

"An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each

competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match

Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time

during the match and may collect further samples as necessary."

[GrumpyOne]

Ok, I know the rules say no external modifications to a gun in production, but what if you found a way to remove metal (read weight) from inside the slide, leaving the external look of the slide pristine? Legal? Illegal? Why? Illegal. Rule 21.2b dis-allows milling the slide for anything other than sight installation.

Next question: What if you found a temp sensitive powder, that got slower as it got colder (theorhetically making it softer shooting/lower PF at lower temps), but was within range of the PF when at normal temps. At the beginning of the match, could you give your random sampling to the chrono guy, then put the rest in an ice box with dry ice, lowering the temp, till just before you were to shoot your stage? Legal? Illegal? Why?

Illegal. That would be changing (altering) the ammunition used after it's been tested. Can't quote a specific rule.

Question about classifiers: Say you are shooting a 40 S&W in Production, with major PF ammo. If you shoot a classifier with it, why wouldn't that same classifier score count in Limited/Limited 10 if you were going to shoot the exact same set up? Or would you have to shoot the classifier 3 times, with the same gun, same ammo, to get a score for each? I asked this one too way back. Each division requires it's own seperate score. Why? A wild guess, probably money (three fees instead of one) that and some small equipment variations. I suppose one "could" mount up their "major PF Production legal rig", buy 3 classifiers sheets, shoot the classifier and submit the same result on all three??? maybe, but wouldn't recommend it.

How would the dry ice be altering the ammo? It would be the same thing as putting it in the sun, to warm it up. Where you place and store your ammo is your business, not the match officials. Find a reverse temp powder, leave it in the sun for an hour or two. Are the match officials gonna tell you where and how you have to store your ammo? You have not altered the load in any way, other than the temp, which in my opinion is completely arbritary (it could always get naturally hotter or cooler, depending on when (or where) you shoot). I'm also not talking about placing all of the ammo in the ice box at one time, just the ammo going on your belt, right before you shoot. The rule (I believe) states a "random sampling", and while the rounds that were cooling in the ice box would/could be included in the random sampling, the bulk of the ammo would be outside the box, which means that if they tested it, and they chose only the ammo only in the ice box, that would not be a random sampling, as they chose only the ones that they deemed questionable. If they did take a true random sampling, and the bulk of the ammo was outside the chest, then the bulk of the random sampling would be from it, not the iced ammo. So, since it is the average velocity x weight of the projectile for PF, the slower one two(from the ice box), would have to be averaged in with the non iced ammo, therefore probably still making PF.

Edited November 5, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[bayoupirate]

Yep, Appendix D4 21.2b,also D4-18 says must remain within 2oz of original stated mfg weight.

Really, Dry Ice? I'd rather not expose my mags to moisture/condensation that way. If you have your heart set on creative equipment manipulation, try going with a temp. sensitive that is slower when hot. Those little chemical activated hand warmers work really well. You could put your ammo in an insulated bag with a few of those and even use a thermometer to keep track of regulating the ammo to a set temp and have consistency.

Actually, the rule for ammo is: 5.5.4 All ammunition used by a competitor must satisfy the requirements of

the relevant Division. (Appendix D

What you're talking about would ensure that all of your ammo will make pf on the chrono, but actually violate the rule when you use it.

I like the way you think, but I'm just gonna keep loading 168pf for my matches.

At our club matches, you must shot and pay for each classifier.

If you'd like to shoot a Limited and a L-10 classifier with the same gun, you must shoot the course twice.

Usually you're not allowed to shoot them back to back and your 1st run is the one scored for the class you are shooting that day's match. ie. you can't buy a classifier practice run.

[GrumpyOne]

Yep, Appendix D4 21.2b,also D4-18 says must remain within 2oz of original stated mfg weight.

Really, Dry Ice? I'd rather not expose my mags to moisture/condensation that way. If you have your heart set on creative equipment manipulation, try going with a temp. sensitive that is slower when hot. Those little chemical activated hand warmers work really well. You could put your ammo in an insulated bag with a few of those and even use a thermometer to keep track of regulating the ammo to a set temp and have consistency.

Actually, the rule for ammo is: 5.5.4 All ammunition used by a competitor must satisfy the requirements of

the relevant Division. (Appendix D

What you're talking about would ensure that all of your ammo will make pf on the chrono, but actually violate the rule when you use it.

I like the way you think, but I'm just gonna keep loading 168pf for my matches.

At our club matches, you must shot and pay for each classifier.

If you'd like to shoot a Limited and a L-10 classifier with the same gun, you must shoot the course twice.

Usually you're not allowed to shoot them back to back and your 1st run is the one scored for the class you are shooting that day's match. ie. you can't buy a classifier practice run.

There is no condensation with dry ice. It' frozen carbon dioxide, and when it "melts", it turns back into a gas. There is no moisture.

[bayoupirate]

I think you need to try a dry run.

Your profile says you live in FL. I live in LA.

Anything cold, especially metal, that is exposed to the atmosphere (Liquid Air here in Louisiana) will cause the vaporized water (humidity) to condensate on it's surfaces.

That's why Air conditioning units have drip pans and window units drip water.

But again, I like the way you think.

[GrumpyOne]

I think you need to try a dry run.

Your profile says you live in FL. I live in LA.

Anything cold, especially metal, that is exposed to the atmosphere (Liquid Air here in Louisiana) will cause the vaporized water (humidity) to condensate on it's surfaces.

That's why Air conditioning units have drip pans and window units drip water.

But again, I like the way you think.

True, it would only be the mags, and it would only be during your run. Wipe them off, load 'em up, put 'em back in the cooler?

[bayoupirate]

Just don't put your shooting glasses in the cooler and try to shoot with them right after pulling them out.

[mactiger]

1) Cheating, but there may be no way to tell.

2) Cheating. Sweaty cold bullets and magazines would be a dead giveaway. So would overly warm ones.

3) Cheating. You must actually shoot each classifier you submit. Tried and denied.

Troy

[CocoBolo]

1) Cheating, but there may be no way to tell.

2) Cheating. Sweaty cold bullets and magazines would be a dead giveaway. So would overly warm ones.

3) Cheating. You must actually shoot each classifier you submit. Tried and denied.

Troy

On the ammo well if he can tell the difference in the ammo I say just go for it, that will not turn your average C class shooter into an instant grand master. My open gun hit the Crono at 184pf at the Gator, it was cold in the morning, when it heated up during the day I'm sure it got back to the 172pf that I got on my Crono, I could tell a slight difference but it made no difference in my shooting. I'm sure not on the band wagon that a slower powder in a production gun is going to make it easier to shoot, if it would why is eveyone loading the fastest powder they can find, TiteGroup, N320, WST etc. What about all those limited guys shooting 231 packing their ammo in coolers, they Cheating as well?

#3 just sign up in each division pay for each and shoot it 3 times, more fun than just shooting it once. Try it with your ice box ammo, then normal temp then some right out the oven, I'll bet the times won't vary much and if they do it won't make any sense.

I saw a lot of cheating in Stock car racing. One night the guy next to me in the pits lifted his hood and there it was a 454 big block with a 4 bbl, the class had a rule 2 bbl only with max cubic inches at 283 + .040 over bore, now that is some cheating, well he sure as heck beat me down the straight away but with that extra 200#'s he had in the front, I went right back around him on every turn, now if he had run off and hid from me I would have had to put his car on the trailer, you know show him the wall up close.

[Skydiver]

Umm... D4.18 is only about the maximum weight being within 2 oz. There is no rule about minimum weight that I can see.

The correct rule to cite was D4.21.2b, about milling the slide. But what if somebody freehands it with a Dremel tool, or uses a drill press and brings video evidence of the work being done? Does it count as milling a slide? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_machine

Seriously, though, I think if you want a lighter slide, purchase an aftermarket slide that is of " the same length, contour and caliber as the original slide for that model of gun", but is lighter. Rule D4.21.3 does not say that the aftermarket slide has to be the same weight as the original slide. I don't know how long this loop hole will exist now that I've pointed it out publicly.

[Nik Habicht]

Clearly none of you have looked at D4.21 thoroughly.....

If it's not expressly permitted, you may have a very tough time at a match....

[bayoupirate]

Yes, I went back and read it again. It's says Max weight. I thought is was 2oz. +/-.

I was wrong.

D4 21.2b is titled as "Milling" but if you read the section to the right, it states "modified". I read that to mean any modification by any means.

If you want to start altering the gun to that extent, you should just do it and shoot in L10 or Ltd.

[Skydiver]

Clearly none of you have looked at D4.21 thoroughly.....

If it's not expressly permitted, you may have a very tough time at a match....

Nik is completely correct about this, and we lost track of the forest for the trees.

This brings an interesting related question: If I order these after market aluminum grips: http://www.doublealpha.biz/gun-accessories/grips/cz-aluminum-grips for my CZ-75, I can install the grips as allowed by D21.4. BUT I'll have to use the (ugly) OEM screws, rather than the (nice) aftermarket screws that come with grips. Rule D21.6 says only minor external parts that come from the OEM. Even thought the aftermarket screws and OEM stainless screws may look very similar, I'll have to purchase these from the OEM: http://czcustom.com/cz-stainless-grip-screws.aspx .

So if I were at the chrono station, and the CRO asks me to prove that the grip screws on my gun are OEM rather than aftermarket, am I getting bumped to Open if I can't produce a receipt or a shipping label from the OEM?

(There's also the ugly scenario but the answer seems pretty clear cut: I never order the OEM parts and just use the aftermarket screws. If I get caught lying saying that the screws are OEM and producing an old shipping label (for different parts perhaps), then it's a 10.6.1 DQ rather than getting bumped to Open.)