Using LEO gear in IDPA question...

[Adam P.]

IDPA rules state that LEO duty rigs can be used in competition, but do I still have to use a cover garnment? I can't find anything in the rulebook that says otherwise. I would think since evrything (gun & mags) have retention that the cover garnment wouldn't have to be worn. I know I would have to also have mace/cuffs, etc on my belt, but just curious if I would still need a cover garnment? If anyone has any insight on this, please clarify this rule for me. Mainly just looking at working with my duty gear more rather that off-duty gear and I just want to mix things upa bit.

Thanks

[Alaskapopo]

No cover garment required. I shoot my duty gear from time to time.

Pat

[Adam P.]

Cool...that's what I wanted to hear.

[Victor_R]

I'm just wondering, do you have to be a active LEO in order to use your LEO rig? Can you be a retired LEO and still use the LEO gear?

[Adam P.]

I'm just wondering, do you have to be a active LEO in order to use your LEO rig? Can you be a retired LEO and still use the LEO gear?

Don't know. Unless they card you at the door, how would they know if you were active or retired?

[High Lord Gomer]

The 2005 rule book states you don't need to use concealment:

CoF 13. Use concealment for scenario stages when appropriate. Exception: Police or military officers when using actual duty gear.

It does not specify that you must be active.

As for equipment:

Exception – Police or military officers may use their duty rig, but ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used and all belt equipment (mace, handcuffs, etc.) must be present.

[Leozinho]

It does not specify that you must be active.

I think it's the other way. It does not specify that you can be retired.

Isn't the point of the rule to allow LEOs to get in trigger time with duty rigs? Then why would retired soldiers and cops shoot in rigs they are no longer using?

Edited October 29, 2010 by Leozinho

[mike cyrwus]

If the definition of LEO is having a commission, I think thats the determiner of whether or not to use a duty rig.

I chose not to, since Im concealed way more that I ever have a duty rig.

[Steve Koski]

The way I've seen it interpreted as to who is a LEO and who isn't (for match purposes) is as follows:

Do you have arrest powers within your jurisdiction?

[jlweems]

This is an interesting debate topic. The IDPA specify certain rules as far as weapons and gear while at the same time stating that peace officers are allowed to use their duty gear. Presumably, this is to encourage more officers to compete.

What happens when those rules are in direct conflict with each other? For instance, IDPA doesn't allow weapon lights, but two agencies in the neighboring county to me mandate weapon lights for uniformed officers and issue holsters that won't work correctly without the light attached.

Also, mace? Nobody uses mace anymore. They need to update that terminology.

Also, who determines what is all the gear that must be present? Not everybody wears the same stuff. For instance, my agency does not issue pepper spray, but we do issue electronic control devices (ECD). Two agencies in the neighboring county issue issues pepper spray but forbid ECDs.

Then you get a guy like me whose issued duty pistol is compensated. I just shoot the matches using personal gear/firearm, but I could see where the conflicting rules could be an issue for others.

[Jim Watson]

Wearing my King Solomon hat, I would decree that if your duty gun does not comply with general IDPA Division requirements, then you would only be eligible for the Law Enforcement category award. If it does comply, then you would be competing for both LE and Division/Class.

Then there are personnel whose sole "duty gear" is gun and badge, worn openly. If they want to compete by Division and Class, they should cover 'em up.

[1911vm]

I'm just wondering, do you have to be a active LEO in order to use your LEO rig? Can you be a retired LEO and still use the LEO gear?

Not to be cynical but a badge is part of the uniform if you do not have one and wear the uniform with out a badge or with a badge that is not current, would you not be impersonating a LEO and can be arrested?

[1911vm]

This is an interesting debate topic. The IDPA specify certain rules as far as weapons and gear while at the same time stating that peace officers are allowed to use their duty gear. Presumably, this is to encourage more officers to compete.

What happens when those rules are in direct conflict with each other? For instance, IDPA doesn't allow weapon lights, but two agencies in the neighboring county to me mandate weapon lights for uniformed officers and issue holsters that won't work correctly without the light attached.

Also, mace? Nobody uses mace anymore. They need to update that terminology.

Also, who determines what is all the gear that must be present? Not everybody wears the same stuff. For instance, my agency does not issue pepper spray, but we do issue electronic control devices (ECD). Two agencies in the neighboring county issue issues pepper spray but forbid ECDs.

Then you get a guy like me whose issued duty pistol is compensated. I just shoot the matches using personal gear/firearm, but I could see where the conflicting rules could be an issue for others.

I do not think it is possible to include all the possibilities of the gear carried by the various departments. They just should say duty gear period.

[Alaskapopo]

I run my duty gear at a fair number of IDPA matches weapon light and all. Never been to a big match however. Just club level. I like it for the practice.

pat

[ausshooter]

If you go to a IDPA match in your duty gear with mags at the front of your belt, a light on your compensated glock, and wear armor ......... who cares?? Any MD worth his salt will let you shoot and let you practice with what you wear to work. If they bump you in outlaw class or say you can't shoot for placement ... who cares?? Go out, SHOOT, get trigger time. Competition in your duty gear is one of the best ways to get better. You are only competing against yourself, don't worry what everyone else is doing. Generally our draws will be slower and our tactics will be different than 'the game'.

[GSWEAR]

Then there are personnel whose sole "duty gear" is gun and badge, worn openly. If they want to compete by Division and Class, they should cover 'em up.

If I recall correctly this was addressed when I took my S.O. class and was told if they were plain clothes they had to use concealment and if they typical wore a full duty belt that they could use it and it had to be as worn on duty, all retention devices have to be used on the holster and mags pouches and full length batons and radios do not have to be used.

Greg

[Boats]

Is there a final word on who qualifies as LEO and who does not. I see guys shooting duty gear in matches that are not currently serving as a Law Enforcement Officer. Or at least I don't think they are. Who knows they might be undercover.

Boats

[jlweems]

This is an interesting debate topic. The IDPA specify certain rules as far as weapons and gear while at the same time stating that peace officers are allowed to use their duty gear. Presumably, this is to encourage more officers to compete.

What happens when those rules are in direct conflict with each other? For instance, IDPA doesn't allow weapon lights, but two agencies in the neighboring county to me mandate weapon lights for uniformed officers and issue holsters that won't work correctly without the light attached.

Also, mace? Nobody uses mace anymore. They need to update that terminology.

Also, who determines what is all the gear that must be present? Not everybody wears the same stuff. For instance, my agency does not issue pepper spray, but we do issue electronic control devices (ECD). Two agencies in the neighboring county issue issues pepper spray but forbid ECDs.

Then you get a guy like me whose issued duty pistol is compensated. I just shoot the matches using personal gear/firearm, but I could see where the conflicting rules could be an issue for others.

I do not think it is possible to include all the possibilities of the gear carried by the various departments. They just should say duty gear period.

That goes right back to the point that I was trying to make. What happens when the rules and "duty gear" come into conflict?

[jlweems]

If you go to a IDPA match in your duty gear with mags at the front of your belt, a light on your compensated glock, and wear armor ......... who cares?? Any MD worth his salt will let you shoot and let you practice with what you wear to work. If they bump you in outlaw class or say you can't shoot for placement ... who cares?? Go out, SHOOT, get trigger time. Competition in your duty gear is one of the best ways to get better. You are only competing against yourself, don't worry what everyone else is doing. Generally our draws will be slower and our tactics will be different than 'the game'.

Well, it is a game...

On one hand, I can agree with the above. I'm competing against myself and to some extent the other shooters that I know at a match, but I do want to try to win the matches. This game only resembles training in that guns and shooting are involved.

[Alaskapopo]

That goes right back to the point that I was trying to make. What happens when the rules and "duty gear" come into conflict?

You allow the cop to shoot his duty gear and ignore the other rule.

pat

[Double]

I was very disappointed today to hear one of my staff members was turned away from a very well known east coast locale club match in an area that he is at training for a few months. Years ago I was stationed in this area and told him while he's there to hop on over and shoot some of their matches. He took his duty gear, full belt with a 6004 drop leg as his holster. My teams have used these rigs in full blown sanctioned state, regional and national matches for the last three years. He's an SO and is becoming a pretty darn talented stage designer as well. The locale club MD turned him away stating he couldn't use a drop-leg. I could see not allowing a cross draw or tactical vest cross-draw type holster. (IMHO a tac-vest strong-side holster attached to a belt shouldn't be a safety issue.) Robert Ray was there while my guys were shooting, he didn't have an issue with it.

My team designed and ran stages one and two last year at the Indoor Winter Nationals and we've been asked to perform a repeat this year. 8 out of 9 will be using strong-side Safariland 6004 holsters with their duty rigs. I'm the oddball out on this one, for the match I will be using a wheel gun with a concealment vest.

I wish more SO's and MD's would stop reading things/rules into things that aren't of issue. Bottom line MD's and SO's are there to ensure safety and provide one other thing.... customer service/entertainment.... it's all about showing your paying customers a good match.

[PHolsted]

I hate to see these kinds of things. Unfortunately though there are only a few ways to deal with them. We could take just about every thing everyone said in this thread and add it to the current rule book and make it about another 20 to 30 pages we will have to remember along with the rest of the rule book. Or we can try and use a little common sense and not read to much of too less into the existing rules. Girl shows up to a local match aftrer working a 12 hour shift and say I'm here to shoot and want to use my duty gear. I say ok let me give you the quick run down. You must Cary all equipment on you duty the same as if you were on duty. Howeve we do allow for you to remove your radio and full length button. So she shoots and has fun! She goes back and tells her swat buddies what time she had at this match and that they need to go shoot. The next week group of Swat guys snow up and say hay we want to shoot the match. We were told we could use our duty gear. What ever your normal gear is as long as it is safe for competing. They come back to the line with their full SOP swat gear on including vest,helmets, all other types of body armor thigh Riggs tassers you name it. They even had their radios on.

I took them to the side made sure they knew how our rules worked and and the standard safety spill.

I guess the point I am trying to make as long as it is their dusty gear it does not matter.

But keep this in mind there are people even law enforcement that will and do cheat. I had a guy com to my bay wearing his duty gear. He had two mag patches horizontal and I swear that if he jumped up and down a few times those mags were hanging out so far they would have fell out. I asked him about the retention device and I was told this model did not have any. Me being non law inforcment said ok. But while don't we make sure they are seated fully in the mag holder he said ok and he pushed them in there maybe a other 1/4 of an inch at best. So I said OK shoote ready? Stand by? And off he goes like

Cat on fire running from hell. When he was finished I gave the proper command to make safe. I picked up his mag and just about slid I into his holster tll I could see what looked to be paper stuffed in the mag holder. Then I go to looking even closer I could see where he had cut the retention straps off. I DQ him for unsportsmanlike behavior. The. He started going on about how he was going to arrest me. Lalalalalala

End point is if we as SO use some common sence I think we can usefhe current rule nook with NP. It just comes down to when we over thing the rules and start trying to add our own.

[jlweems]

Double,

I just don't get that at all. That MD doesn't have a clue or he would have realized that a drop leg 6004 doesn't offer any sort of a competitive advantage at all, and the rules do state that duty gear is allowed. It doesn't specify that it must be a waist holster.

---

I'm taking the SO class this coming weekend. I plan on pushing the issue on this question as the club hosting the class is the site of a sanctioned match that I plan to attend, and I intend to wear duty gear at the match.

[Steve Koski]

Is there a final word on who qualifies as LEO and who does not. I see guys shooting duty gear in matches that are not currently serving as a Law Enforcement Officer. Or at least I don't think they are. Who knows they might be undercover.

Boats

Boats,

The final word is up to the Match Director, since the rule book doesn't discuss retirement issues.

However, a retired law enforcement officer is RETIRED, and no longer a law enforcement officer. If I was the MD, they would not be considered LEO and not allowed to used duty gear.

By my way of thinking: If you have arrest powers in your jurisdiction, you are a LEO. If not, then you're not a LEO.

Koski

[jlweems]

Is there a final word on who qualifies as LEO and who does not. I see guys shooting duty gear in matches that are not currently serving as a Law Enforcement Officer. Or at least I don't think they are. Who knows they might be undercover.

Boats

Boats,

The final word is up to the Match Director, since the rule book doesn't discuss retirement issues.

However, a retired law enforcement officer is RETIRED, and no longer a law enforcement officer. If I was the MD, they would not be considered LEO and not allowed to used duty gear.

By my way of thinking: If you have arrest powers in your jurisdiction, you are a LEO. If not, then you're not a LEO.

Koski

That depends. Many retired officers still make themselves available for reserve duty. While they aren't working full time, they are still sworn and have full authority when called to assist.