15 round magazines in Production

[glefos]

Somebody start a poll. No rhetoric, no discussion. Two choices: a) leave 10rds or >10rds

Be interesting to see which direction the results would favor.

[Jman]

Somebody start a poll. No rhetoric, no discussion. Two choices: a) leave 10rds or >10rds

Be interesting to see which direction the results would favor.

I'll save you the trouble. "Leave it at 10" would win by a 3 to 1 margin.

Jim

[sfinney]

No argument, "Leave at 10" would win by a large margin.... of those shooters already shooting Production, and equipped for it. For those that don't currently shoot it because they just hate it, or had no interest in shooting 10 rd capacity, I'd wager most would vote for "More than 10". Just a guess.

[badchad]

Nationals is a sub-set of our sport, in some ways. The majority of our members don't shoot Nationals every year, and many (most?) never at all. So, sure, it might show what guns can be competitive, but that doesn't mean those are the only guns that are competitive. Fictional example: a guy wants to shoot USPSA and owns a Beretta 96. We've had guys finish at/near the top at Nationals with a Beretta 92 before right? Pretty much the identical gun, so the competitiveness of the platform should be the same. Well, our guy only has 12rd mags, and there isn't a 15rd alternative.

First I notice you have to use a fictional example because I imagine Beretta 96s are pretty rare among highly competitive shooters. Second, here’s a 15 round alternative that will bring him up to capacity. http://www.cdnninvestments.com/be96f4015flf.html Third, for all practical purposes it’s not a big deal because as guys get good enough to care about winning they pretty much all start buying new guns. G17 guys get G34s, guys go from .40 to 9mm, virtually all leave their compacts behind, and in my observations most change platforms completely at some point. In the end practically everyone shooting for sport ends up with a full size 9mm pistol.

On the G23 issue, if we start allowing mags from other models, so people can get the full 15rds, we're looking at yet another rule change, and all the BS that goes along with them...not worth it. "Why can he use a G22 mag in his G23, when they don't make a bigger mag for my xyz blaster?".

I’m not sure, but I don’t see in the rules where a G22 mag can’t be shot in a G23 now. And it is my understanding that most modern/popular compact pistols will fit the larger mags of their bigger models, and I think a good number of compacts in 9mm hold 15 anyway, just like the G19. And again compacts are pretty much starter guns or those used by “martial artists” who are not that concerned with the “competitive” aspect of the sport. Oh, and most guys I see just starting out shoot their compacts in Limited anyway, so what’s the point?

If you think more rounds would be fun, and let you take better advantage of your skill set...shoot Limited or Open

No reason to spend thousands more dollars on guns, and gunsmiths, to be able to shoot what should be well within the capability of the modern Production gun, if it were able to be shot as designed rather than as intended by Sarah Brady.

L10 and SS Minor really aren't remotely similar to Production save mag capacity.

Listen to yourself. You just shot your own argument down. If you say Production isn’t remotely similar to L10 and SS Minor, save for the mag capacity, then you can’t complain that increasing the capacity makes it too much like Limited, which is what I was responding to.

Production is, and should be, the Division that is most welcoming to what are the most common/popular street guns being sold today.

I agree and I think that’s why the capacity limit should be raised to 15, to make it MOST welcoming to MOST shooters. It seems that everyone in the 10 round camp wants to make the capacity welcoming to the exception guns that very very few shoot in this sport.

If you want a true gauge of how popular Production is, Nationals aren't your best bet. Go look at at the results for Sectional matches, and things look different.

I know Area 2 looks pretty much just like Nationals. Too bad uspsa does not have all the sectional mach results cause I would bet money, that if you average them, the combined results looks a lot like Nationals.

I wouldn't call IPSC a good comparison for U.S. Production either. The gun laws in many/most IPSC countries are such that coming up with a Limited or Open gun can be exceedingly prohibitive....try getting parts for your Open build in most of those countries...forget it.

I don’t doubt that in Europe it’s a lot cheaper and easier to put together a Production rig. Just like here. However it seems their guns laws are in some ways less restrictive than here cause they can load 15 in their Production guns.

I wouldn't shoot Production-15 because it's too much like Limited. When I shoot Production, it's to shoot a gun like my carry guns, and do so under harder conditions (less mag capacity, no magwell, etc). Production-15 would be too much like shooting Limited.

The neat thing about raising the limit to 15 rounds is that you or anyone else could still load just 10 if they wanted to.

[enutees]

I shoot production exclusively and would love 15 rounds. The last match I shot had 16 production shooters and I don't think one person had a gun that wouldn't take 15 rds or more.

[Corey]

part of the fun of Production is planning the reloads and how to shoot the stage. its not necessarily about the round count being too low or two high. its part of the game. its what it is. Its why a lot of experienced shooters (better than just about everyone posting in this thread-myself included) continue to shoot production match after match. each division has its own aspects and production has 10 round capacity, minor scoring to encourage accuracy, and the strategy needed to plan a few reloads here and there. Just about every arguement has been that the round count needs to be 15 is that person wants it bc my guess is they dont like to reload 3 or 4 times per stage. thats how the division works. Until i see a poll that deals with shooters who have never shot the division or the sport in general and the concensus is 2-to-1 that 15 is better, then it may be a viable option. Otherwise, you're wanting to change the rules to fit you. Kinda like wanting 4 strikes in baseball bc you cant hit the ball with the first 3. its a drastic example, but the point is there.

[spanky]

If it ain't broke...

[G-ManBart]

First I notice you have to use a fictional example because I imagine Beretta 96s are pretty rare among highly competitive shooters. Second, here’s a 15 round alternative that will bring him up to capacity. http://www.cdnninvestments.com/be96f4015flf.html Third, for all practical purposes it’s not a big deal because as guys get good enough to care about winning they pretty much all start buying new guns. G17 guys get G34s, guys go from .40 to 9mm, virtually all leave their compacts behind, and in my observations most change platforms completely at some point. In the end practically everyone shooting for sport ends up with a full size 9mm pistol.

It's not about what people end up shooting, or what the most competitive folks are shooting, it's about getting people into the sport, on an even playing field, with what they already have.

I’m not sure, but I don’t see in the rules where a G22 mag can’t be shot in a G23 now. And it is my understanding that most modern/popular compact pistols will fit the larger mags of their bigger models, and I think a good number of compacts in 9mm hold 15 anyway, just like the G19. And again compacts are pretty much starter guns or those used by “martial artists” who are not that concerned with the “competitive” aspect of the sport. Oh, and most guys I see just starting out shoot their compacts in Limited anyway, so what’s the point?

There are plenty of guns that there isn't an alternative magazine that would allow them to get 15 rounds. If someone wants to shoot Limited, accepting various disadvantages, with their compact, or anything else that meets the rules, that's their choice. Changing the rules so that some of them don't have a division where they don't face disadvantages is an entirely different matter.

No reason to spend thousands more dollars on guns, and gunsmiths, to be able to shoot what should be well within the capability of the modern Production gun, if it were able to be shot as designed rather than as intended by Sarah Brady.

You don't have to spend a bunch of money; you can just load up your mags for your current gun and shoot Limited....at a disadvantage. Hmmm...that's exactly what you're suggesting others do...accept being at a disadvantage due to equipment rules that would favor 15rd mags over those that hold less.

So, there's no reason for you to have to buy another gun, mags, etc, but it would be okay if other folks have to buy a new gun so they could be competitive in Production?

Listen to yourself. You just shot your own argument down. If you say Production isn’t remotely similar to L10 and SS Minor, save for the mag capacity, then you can’t complain that increasing the capacity makes it too much like Limited, which is what I was responding to.

No, changing the capacity would make a fundamental change in the division, making it much more like Limited. SS isn't even in the same ballpark...it's a one gun division, that really can't be compared.

I agree and I think that’s why the capacity limit should be raised to 15, to make it MOST welcoming to MOST shooters. It seems that everyone in the 10 round camp wants to make the capacity welcoming to the exception guns that very very few shoot in this sport.

No, making it 15 would make it equally inviting to some folks (people with 15rd mags who can just download to 10) and LESS welcoming to those with mags holding less than 15 who can't remedy that problem without buying a new gun. Math isn't negotiable, and less people that aren't currently shooting USPSA would have a gun that is at least reasonably competitive if the limit was raised to 15. Put simply, more guns fit the 10rd rule than the 15rd rule, without question.

I know Area 2 looks pretty much just like Nationals. Too bad uspsa does not have all the sectional mach results cause I would bet money, that if you average them, the combined results looks a lot like Nationals.

Having lived in Area-2 and shot matches in Area-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 in the last couple of years, I'd say that 2 is quite different, and Sectional matches (you should be able to see all of them) are obviously different from Area matches.

I don’t doubt that in Europe it’s a lot cheaper and easier to put together a Production rig. Just like here. However it seems their guns laws are in some ways less restrictive than here cause they can load 15 in their Production guns.

Gun laws aren't what drives magazine limits in IPSC. They didn't have any limit, and it hurt the sport...and gun laws aren't what drove them to lower the limit. The fact that the lack of a limit effectively made it a one or two gun division is what drove the change....get more people into the sport with what they have.

The neat thing about raising the limit to 15 rounds is that you or anyone else could still load just 10 if they wanted to.

Yeah, that makes no sense at all. I like to shoot Production, with the 10rd limit, because it's an even playing field, and it forces me to look at stages differently. That doesn't mean I don't want to be competitive, and shooting 10rd mags in a 15rd division wouldn't be competitive.

The good thing is that it's simply not going to change. I'll bet if you polled the BOD, the answer would be not only no, but hell no. If you want to shoot with full mags...there's a division or two already available for you. If you don't want to do that, you still have a division where you can shoot on a level playing field, with what you have now. Taking that away from anybody that wants to get into the sport, but only owns a gun with less than 15rd mags, would appear selfish just because a few people think it would be more fun...for them. R,

[rvb]

...Production-15 would be too much like shooting Limited.

The neat thing about raising the limit to 15 rounds is that you or anyone else could still load just 10 if they wanted to.

Seriously? I guess it's "neat" that people can already do that currently in Lim and Open "if they want to." Not exactly competitive.

-rvb

[GForceLizard]

Screw 15 rounds. If you own a Springfield XDM in 9mm you want to load it up to 19. No limits!

Just kidding.

[ebg3]

I've seen mentioned a couple of times about competing against "$3500 S_I guns in Limited and Open", I've had several S_I guns in Limited and Open and none of them cost $3500. In fact both my Limited guns, a STI and a SV may add up to $3500. There are a lot of Production rigs out there that are very close to the price of a S_I outfit. And I've seen a few people that are quite competitive in Limited with a Glock 22 or 35 so equipment cost really is not an argument. I can see how someone could face a disadvantage if their Production gun all of a sudden isn't competitive because their mags won't hold 15, to me, that would be the only downside to increasing the capacity rule. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the cap. went to 15 I don't like being limited to 10 rds because of past legislation. But, I'd rather see the rule changed so mag carriers don't have to be behind the hipbone.

I've been MD at my local club for the last two years and I've noticed that a lot of new shooters choose to shoot Limited minor so they can load to full capacity. I don't know if those shooters would be happy with 15rds in Production or if they would still load up and shoot Limited minor.

[d_striker]

I've been MD at my local club for the last two years and I've noticed that a lot of new shooters choose to shoot Limited minor so they can load to full capacity. I don't know if those shooters would be happy with 15rds in Production or if they would still load up and shoot Limited minor.

I guarantee 99% of them would shoot production over Limited Minor if they had at least 3 mags and could load to 15.

Edited November 5, 2010 by d_striker

[beltjones]

I've been MD at my local club for the last two years and I've noticed that a lot of new shooters choose to shoot Limited minor so they can load to full capacity. I don't know if those shooters would be happy with 15rds in Production or if they would still load up and shoot Limited minor.

I guarantee 99% of them would shoot production over Limited Minor if they had at least 3 mags and could load to 15.

But what does it matter? It's not as if they have a chance of winning the Production division for the day, right? The only reason a new shooter would want to be in one division over another is to earn his first classifier (which most likely isn't going to be too impressive anyway). I think we're all in agreement that new shooters should be focusing on safety above all else, so removing a few reloads from their performance by "encouraging" them to shoot Limited Minor is actually a pretty nice benefit of the current system.

Also, we're just assuming that people coming out to shoot for the first time have an idea of what division they should shoot in. Most of the time they say, "I have gun X. What division does that put me in?" I've never seen anyone show up with a gun and insist that they get to shoot in any particular division. In face, I think we're greatly overestimating the level of disappointment a new shooter feels caused by the division that he competes in.

[Fireant]

Here is what I see happening most in my area. New guy goes out and buys an M&P or Glock or XDM in 9mm or even in 40. Shows up to one of the other shooting sports where 3 mags is all you need and gets told he can only load 10 rounds. So they shoot it the whole time thinking it does not make any sense. Then a buddy of the new shooter tells him to go shoot USPSA because he can load them to capacity. New shooter shows up and is dissapointed that he either has to down load to 10 rounds or shoot against the 22+ round 2011 type guns and never shows up to another match. Now USPSA has lost that shooter and anyone that will listen to them put the sport down.

What is the solution? I don't really know, but I do know that many people do not show back up for this reason.

[Leozinho]

New shooter shows up and is dissapointed that he either has to down load to 10 rounds or shoot against the 22+ round 2011 type guns and never shows up to another match.

What is the solution? I don't really know, but I do know that many people do not show back up for this reason.

I've never seen this and find it hard to believe. Over the last 5 or 6 years I've taken ten guys to shoot their first IDPA or USPSA match. All shot production (or SSP). Some shot one match, some shot four or five. None are still shooting competitions, and none of it had to do with downloading to 10. Ranges too far away? Check. Don't want to stand around for 4+ hours on a Saturday afternoon to shoot just 75 rounds? Check. Ego couldn't handle getting beat by overweight civilians? Big check. Got deployed and didn't pick it back up when they got home? Check.

None ever mentioned downloading mags as a reason for not going to more matches with me. In fact, four of those shooters shot their duty Sig 229, and they would have noticed they could only load 12 in their mags when everyone else loaded 15. (229's factory mags hold 12).

Edited November 5, 2010 by Leozinho

[badchad]

It's not about what people end up shooting, or what the most competitive folks are shooting, it's about getting people into the sport, on an even playing field, with what they already have.

But it’s not an even playing field with any and every pistol and if you tell new shooters it is then you are deceiving them. A new shooter shows up with a Sig 229 and 12 round magazines loaded to 10, they way outgunned to my Shadow with 19 round magazines loaded to 10. If you are telling them that a Sig 229 is a truly “competitive” pistol in Production class, you are LYING to them. And for anyone that cares, hi-cap 226 magazines do fit in a 229, so you are not stuck shooting 12 rounds if you don’t want to. Now I’m not saying you should tell them they need to upgrade, just let them shoot whatever class they want with the pistol they have, and they will figure out if they want to upgrade or not a later date, and you won’t have to BS them at all.

There are plenty of guns that there isn't an alternative magazine that would allow them to get 15 rounds.

Please list me plenty of guns that can’t be made to hold 15, and are good enough that (should you care much about winning) you wouldn’t need to want to upgrade to a different gun anyway.

So, there's no reason for you to have to buy another gun, mags, etc, but it would be okay if other folks have to buy a new gun so they could be competitive in Production?

You know those guys shooting compact pistols in Production are going to buy new guns anyway once they start getting all “competitive” about it. Just admit it.

Having lived in Area-2 and shot matches in Area-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 in the last couple of years, I'd say that 2 is quite different, and Sectional matches (you should be able to see all of them) are obviously different from Area matches.

I don’t see them. You got a link? Your claim is that if we look at all the area/sectional matches and average them the distribution of shooters won’t have Production trailing Limited and Open to a degree similar as seen at Nationals?

Yeah, that makes no sense at all. I like to shoot Production, with the 10rd limit, because it's an even playing field, and it forces me to look at stages differently. That doesn't mean I don't want to be competitive, and shooting 10rd mags in a 15rd division wouldn't be competitive.

What is your primary Production pistol?

[badchad]

If it ain't broke...

In a way it is broken. All things being equal most people seem to prefer shooting with a greater magazine capacity to a lesser one. Just look at the popularity of Limited vs. L10, where things otherwise are equal.

[rvb]

If you are telling them that a Sig 229 is a truly “competitive” pistol in Production class, you are LYING to them.

this is the reason everyone is so concerned about the division being so "fair." What is not competitive about a 229? A little shorter? Double Action? There are any number of shooters who could pick up a 229 and win most local matches and do well at most majors. It may not be "the best" choice, but that doesn't make it non-competitive. uspsa has a bad enough reputation as an equipment race, don't apply that to production, too.

10 rounds is a line in the sand that makes production fair to just about anyone's non-single-action auto, AND it differentiates it from the other divisions. 15 rounds doesn't accomplish either.

This game will never be "every mans" game. We need to recruit who we can, but if someone doesn't come back for such a trivial reason, then they probably wouldn't have come back no matter how the division was tweaked. It's usually obvious who falls in love with the game at their first match regardless of scores, and who is just looking for an excuse not to come back and get embarrassed again. I don't want to tailor the game to the later.

You know those guys shooting compact pistols in Production are going to buy new guns anyway once they start getting all “competitive” about it. Just admit it.

We could say the same about putting guys who want to shoot production guns loaded to capacity into Limited.... eventually they'll go high-cap major. We can't expect to have a PERFECT division for every random soul who comes to his first match with whatever gun he happens to own.

It's far easier to tell a newbie they have to limit to 10 in a mag than it is to tell them they need to buy 226 mags for their 229, or their 10-round "ban" mags won't be competitive. The former keeps things even. the later begins an equipment race.

-rvb

[GrumpyOne]

If it ain't broke...

In a way it is broken. All things being equal most people seem to prefer shooting with a greater magazine capacity to a lesser one. Just look at the popularity of Limited vs. L10, where things otherwise are equal.

Don't you get it? Bart said and I quote "It's not about what people end up shooting, or what the most competitive folks are shooting, it's about getting people into the sport, on an even playing field, with what they already have."

Yes, they may end up with more "competitive" equipment at sometime or another, but the majority will not. The majority will never shoot more than a level 1 match. You seem to think everyone is striving to get to the Nationals, and then to win. Most have no idea that more than a level 1 match even exists. When you sample what people shot at nationals, you are sampling a very, very small segment of the USPSA shooting public.

If there were to be a rule change for Production, I would suggest limiting courses to 24 rounds. That way, all you would need is 3 mags, loaded to 10, and still be able to have 7 make up shots if needed. If you wanted to carry more mags, then fine. That puts newbies buying one mag, and being ready to go.

There is always someone who will be unhappy with the rules in whatever sport they choose to play. Life isn't fair, but USPSA tries it's best to make the divisions fair for everyone in their respective divisions. Get used to it... or go shoot Limited.

I'm done with this thread, nothing new has been said since the first couple of responses, and now it has become nothing more than an argument that, at it's current pace, will fill up 20 or more pages of threads, and waste peoples' time wading through the nonsense. Agree to disagree and be done with it. No one is gonna change their mind in either direction.

[G-ManBart]

It's not about what people end up shooting, or what the most competitive folks are shooting, it's about getting people into the sport, on an even playing field, with what they already have.

But it’s not an even playing field with any and every pistol and if you tell new shooters it is then you are deceiving them. A new shooter shows up with a Sig 229 and 12 round magazines loaded to 10, they way outgunned to my Shadow with 19 round magazines loaded to 10. If you are telling them that a Sig 229 is a truly “competitive” pistol in Production class Division, you are LYING to them. And for anyone that cares, hi-cap 226 magazines do fit in a 229, so you are not stuck shooting 12 rounds if you don’t want to. Now I’m not saying you should tell them they need to upgrade, just let them shoot whatever class they want with the pistol they have, and they will figure out if they want to upgrade or not a later date, and you won’t have to BS them at all.

The level playing field is determined by the rules, not what people shoot. If someone shows up now with a 12rd (mag) gun, chances are, they're only giving up some sight radius, if anything, to the more experienced folks who have dedicated guns for the sport. If you change the rules to 15rds, they're short 20% on ammo. The rules have been stacked against them. Leave it at 10, and they aren't at a disadvantage. Now, don't go saying a couple of rounds isn't that big a deal, because it obviously is to you, or you wouldn't want more in the gun!

There are plenty of guns that there isn't an alternative magazine that would allow them to get 15 rounds.

Please list me plenty of guns that can’t be made to hold 15, and are good enough that (should you care much about winning) you wouldn’t need to want to upgrade to a different gun anyway.

I'm not going to go work up a list of guns...but they are out there. A G21 immediately comes to mind. With light loads and a good shooter, it would be good enough to win any match in the world. I'm not aware of any 15rd mags for it, and I doubt one would fit the box if it were made.

So, there's no reason for you to have to buy another gun, mags, etc, but it would be okay if other folks have to buy a new gun so they could be competitive in Production?

You know those guys shooting compact pistols in Production are going to buy new guns anyway once they start getting all “competitive” about it. Just admit it.

It's not just compact pistols, and while some folks will decide to buy another gun, they shouldn't be FORCED to because of a rules change to satisfy a minority of current shooters. They can show up now, and be able to have as many rounds in the gun as anybody else in Production. Those are the folks we want to be most inviting to. You already have a gun that's perfectly competitive in Production, so leaving the rules the same don't hurt you. If you're not happy with the rules of that division, shoot another division, don't try to change things that will prevent some folks from starting.

Having lived in Area-2 and shot matches in Area-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 in the last couple of years, I'd say that 2 is quite different, and Sectional matches (you should be able to see all of them) are obviously different from Area matches.

I don’t see them. You got a link? Your claim is that if we look at all the area/sectional matches and average them the distribution of shooters won’t have Production trailing Limited and Open to a degree similar as seen at Nationals?

Here's 2009: http://www.uspsa.org/legacy/majormatches.php?year=2009

Illinois, Indiana, Western PA, Wisconsin all had Production as the biggest Division. VA/MD, and NC had Limited #1, Production #2, and Open 3rd.

I didn't say anything about adding them up and averaging them, I said Sectionals, in general, don't show the same distribution as Nationals. Lots of folks shoot Sectionals, but don't shoot Area or Nationals. It also seems to be very regional. Here in MI, OH, IL, IN, Production is huge, often the biggest division at local matches....grass roots, not the handful of folks who travel to bigger matches.

Yeah, that makes no sense at all. I like to shoot Production, with the 10rd limit, because it's an even playing field, and it forces me to look at stages differently. That doesn't mean I don't want to be competitive, and shooting 10rd mags in a 15rd division wouldn't be competitive.

What is your primary Production pistol?

Primary is an M&P Pro, although I'm considering an SP-01 Shadow from Angus. No, I wouldn't be hurt by a change to 15, but that's not what this is about. It's what's the best set of rules for the MOST people. Anybody with a 15rd gun, can download to 10 and not be hurt by the rules. Not everybody can load up to 15 if the rules were changed....there's no way around that, and there's no way I see the BOD deciding to make a change that might keep some people from trying USPSA shooting. It's pretty hard to imagine a potential newbie saying "What, everybody has to limit themselves to 10rds in the mags? No way I'm going to do that just to shoot a match." It's pretty easy to see a guy who owns a Beretta 96 saying "Hey, it's not fair that those guys can load 15 in their mags, but I've only got 12...thanks, I'll pass". R,

[G-ManBart]

Agree to disagree and be done with it. No one is gonna change their mind in either direction.

Can't argue with that!

[Corey]

I think this thread has ran its course. whos up for locking it up?

[aztecdriver]

Production is production and you want to change it to suit you. Congratulations because you found a few supporters. I'll fight that with the bod until i lose. 15 rounds removes the technical challenge that makes it the division it is. If the limit is removed, I'll stop shooting it and stick to limited and single stack. For whatever argument either side makes about equipment, new shooters, cost,'it's all crap. It's the challenge you want to change and personally I believe it should be left alone and I'll make sure my sc and ad know my feelings. I'm also done with the thread as it's clear you few just want to reload less and spray and pray. No argument can be made to change that methodology and the only valid one supporting your side is parity with ipsc and I lend 30% credence to supporting that position.

[Nik Habicht]

Having lived in Area-2 and shot matches in Area-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 in the last couple of years, I'd say that 2 is quite different, and Sectional matches (you should be able to see all of them) are obviously different from Area matches.

I don’t see them. You got a link? Your claim is that if we look at all the area/sectional matches and average them the distribution of shooters won’t have Production trailing Limited and Open to a degree similar as seen at Nationals?

I just pulled up the totals for all of the competitors who competed in Area or Sectional matches this year -- my criteria were the word Area or Section/Sectional match in the title, I also looked up the totals for the 2010 Nationals and the 2009 Area 2 match and listed them for comparison. I ignored state matches...

Totals:

Limited 958 competitors. Nationals: 214. 2009 Area 2 Match: 108

Open 919 Competitors. Nationals 264. 2009 Area 2 Match: 138

Production: 943 Competitors. Nationals 118. 2009 Area 2 Match: 59

Yup, you're right, the country mirrors the Nationals -- where all divisions haven't been contested at a single match since 2004, when Production was in its infancy. Clearly the split Nationals are the way to gauge the popularity of the division though....

It's perfectly o.k. though -- because clearly those of us who have been shooting the division, and officiating at matches, and running clubs and sections, and trying to nurture the division, have clearly missed what the past three years in USPSA have taught you -- namely that you don't like competing in Production with only ten rounds.

You've translated that into the mistaken belief, that changing the division will be good for the sport, without ever running the numbers -- which are available on the USPSA site for anyone to compute.....

In my slight experience growing the sport, one of the things I've noticed is that the diversity of the divisions allows people to find their home -- the one where they happily compete. Some people find that home in Open, others in Production, or Single-Stack, and a few very hardy souls in Revolver. Others hop divisions depending on mood or blaster du jour. In my years as a match director and section coordinator that's one of the factors responsible for the growth of the sport...

[cas]

After reading most of this thread, I kept thinking about the "new shooters and what they have to buy" portions of this discussion. It made me think of a number of shooters I see, month after month who only have two mag pouches or don't have any mag pouches at all. Production and single stack shooters with mags stuck in the pants pockets or in their waistband. These guys shoot this way month after month (year after year) without being "forced" to buy any additional gear. They keep doing it because they don't care what everyone else is doing, they're enjoying themselves, which seems to be a lot more than I can say about some shooters, no matter how properly outfitted they are.