Arbitrary GM Status?

[professor]

The results from the 2010 Revolver Nationals are in, and Jerry M is back on top.

The 4th place finisher, high Master and shooting at 95.16% of Jerry is Josh Lentz.

Apparently, Josh has been told informally by Michael Voigt that he is NOT going to be moved up to GM based on his performance at the Nationals.

This despite the fact that seven Revolver GMs competed at this Nationals, and Josh beat four of them, including last year's National champion.

This despite the fact that based on last year's Nationals, FOUR shooters advanced to GM, apparently for shooting better than 95% of the winner at that match, Cliff Walsh.

I would note that there were only 4 revo GMs competing in 2009, and these four shooters only beat two of them.

Furthermore, one of the four new GMs created in 2009 went into the Nationals match as a newly-minted A class revo shooter, and was jumped two classifications to GM.

Excerpt from p. iii of USPSA Handgun Rules, January 2008 Edition:

"In addition, if you score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be immediately moved to Grand Master class for that division."

So who at USPSA Headquarters is making arbitrary decisions on advancing or holding back shooters from GM status? Is this a presidential Executive Order?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Edited October 27, 2010 by professor

[John Z Sr]

Very well said my friend. Having been fortunate enough to shoot several Level 2/3 matches with Josh over the last 2 years, yes he is GM material. My money is on him to be National Champ very soon. The man (promised I would not refer to him as a kid anymore) is way younger than any of us, has eyes that are still sharp and has 20+ years to practice before he gets up to the age bracket that the current top shooter is. Besides, what "A" class shooter wants to make "M" if Josh is stuck there?

[Carmoney]

Ahhh, who cares? The classification system is so warped in Revo Division it really doesn't matter anymore--if it ever did. We're all shooting heads-up anyway, for practical purposes, aren't we?

This topic has already been beaten to death in the other thread, anyway.....

[professor]

Ahhh, who cares? The classification system is so warped in Revo Division it really doesn't matter anymore--if it ever did. We're all shooting heads-up anyway, for practical purposes, aren't we?

This topic has already been beaten to death in the other thread, anyway.....

Rules are rules. If we don't follow them all, who is supposed to decide which ones we follow, and which we don't?

Furthermore, if the officials don't enforce them all, what does that say for the integrity of the sport? Can we ignore violations of the 180 rule next? How about allowing shooters to continue to participate in a match after a DQ?

IMHO, you follow the rules as established, unless and until they are changed using the procedures set forth in the rules to make changes.

I only wish these precepts were being followed at the Federal level WRT our Constitution.

As a lawyer, do you get to choose which laws to follow and which to ignore?

Sure, the classification system has its faults, because over the years the HHFs weren't established using division-specific results. Still, the calculation scheme is established, and following the rules establishes a standard that is reproducable and known to all the participants.

There should not be an exception to the rules made arbitrarily by USPSA officials, or we can kiss away any consistency in scoring competitions. In this particular situation, it appears that an arbitrary and capricious decision was made, in direct contravention of the written rules of our sport.

I for one refuse to accept that as the final word. If this action has been made officially, and if it is not reversed, I will appeal through my area director to the BOD to sanction the officials who made it.

[Carmoney]

I'm not saying I disagree with you, Stan. But I think there are plenty of other inequities that deserve more attention than this. Starting with the fact that USPSA funds a Ladies Open World Shoot Team and a Junior Open World Shoot Team yet completely ignores our entire division.

Besides, it would not surprise me if Josh gets moved up to GM the next time they run the calculator system, either as a result of an automatic computer bump due to his 95%+ performance, or manual adjustment by somebody out at Sedro. I seriously doubt if Mike Voigt has anything to do with it, and who knows if he was even paying attention to Josh's question during all that chaos. The middle of the awards and prize distribution process was probably not the best time to approach him with something like that, y'know?

Josh is going to make GM anyway, sooner or later.

[professor]

I'm not saying I disagree with you, Stan. But I think there are plenty of other inequities that deserve more attention than this. Starting with the fact that USPSA funds a Ladies Open World Shoot Team and a Junior Open World Shoot Team yet completely ignores our entire division.

Besides, it would not surprise me if Josh gets moved up to GM the next time they run the calculator system, either as a result of an automatic computer bump due to his 95%+ performance, or manual adjustment by somebody out at Sedro. I seriously doubt if Mike Voigt has anything to do with it, and who knows if he was even paying attention to Josh's question during all that chaos. The middle of the awards and prize distribution process was probably not the best time to approach him with something like that, y'know?

Josh is going to make GM anyway, sooner or later.

Point 1: The funding of World Shoot Teams is not spelled out in the rules. Therefore, they are at the discretion of USPSA management. Not an issue of rule-breaking, although it is an issue of intentional slights aimed at Revolver Division to fund category teams instead of a Division team.

Point 2: Also immaterial, but Josh doesn't move up as a function of the 95.2% at the Nationals. His current classifier average is 90.30%, and it'll get bumped to about 92.6% based on current scores. Of course, other classifier scores could change that, either up or down. As a Master with an average hovering just below 95% it's much easier to move down than up.

Point 3: I don't know how the interaction between Josh and Mike Voight went. However, if the rulebook is not followed [i.e., Josh is not "..immediately moved to Grand Master class.."], then someone at headquarters is culpable for violating the rules of the sport. It probably has no bearing on Josh's case, but Mike Voight was on the other side of that 95% cut point earlier in the week, scoring 94.3% as a Master in Limited 10. Blake Miguez scored 96.92% as top Master in L10. In his case, that score will push his classifier total over 95%, so he should attain GM without question.

Point 4: "..manual adjustment by someone out at Sedro Woolley.." would be just as wrong a violation of the rules.

Point 5: Sure, I think Josh is going to make GM, and achieve that at a relatively young age. By the rules, he has attained GM by his finish at the Nationals.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

[mgood]

Point 3: I don't know how the interaction between Josh and Mike Voight went. However, if the rulebook is not followed [i.e., Josh is not "..immediately moved to Grand Master class.."], then someone at headquarters is culpable for violating the rules of the sport. It probably has no bearing on Josh's case, but Mike Voight was on the other side of that 95% cut point earlier in the week, scoring 94.3% as a Master in Limited 10. Blake Miguez scored 96.92% as top Master in L10. In his case, that score will push his classifier total over 95%, so he should attain GM without question.

To add to that line of thinking, Michael Voight is a Grand Master in Singlestack Division. RD4.

His high percentage in SS is 90.83%. He's a GM based on his 98.40% finish at the '09 SS Nationals.

Josh should be a GM. Clearly, according to the rules, there's no question, no one should have to think about it.

[Matt Griffin]

Very well said my friend. Having been fortunate enough to shoot several Level 2/3 matches with Josh over the last 2 years, yes he is GM material. My money is on him to be National Champ very soon. The man (promised I would not refer to him as a kid anymore) is way younger than any of us, has eyes that are still sharp and has 20+ years to practice before he gets up to the age bracket that the current top shooter is. Besides, what "A" class shooter wants to make "M" if Josh is stuck there?

Hey, I'm not 46! Wait . . .

Just kidding, but Jerry's got 30 years on Josh, and 19 years on me, and a few less on Cliff. I'm more worried about the kid 18 years younger, if Nils picks up the wheelgun again we're all in trouble.

H.

[Carmoney]

I'm more worried about the kid 18 years younger, if Nils picks up the wheelgun again we're all in trouble.

You got that right!

[Flexmoney]

EVERYBODY ought to kick in and get Nils an Open gun...then let that French guy worry about him.

Proffesor, I wasn't there, so I am just going on the hearsay of your hearsay...but, don't give MV too much attention on this. I know the rules better than he does [edit to say: that I am more of a rules geek than he] and I got it wrong. (well, I quoted the classifier book wording, where there is wording in the rule book... btw, it's not line item enumerated in the rule book either, IIRC?)

Anyway...MV isn't going to go hands on with this issue. The office at Sedro would do any work in this regard. With that said, don't expect them to automatically catch it. They probably will, but it would pay to make sure...if one were so inclined. The Executive Director (Dave Thomas) runs the office and...I believe...oversees the classification system. Within that office, Dave will have somebody assigned to the classification system.

Make the case to Dave Thomas...and allow him to pass it along to whoever he has doing the work.

(If it were me, I'd point out that the classifier book says one thing and the rule book says a slightly different thing...then, point out how it was handled last year.)

[professor]

The November classifiers just got posted to USPSA website, and include results from the Nationals.

Josh Lentz is a brand new Revolver GM!

Congrats! :cheers: