Speed or accuracy first

[Flexmoney]

See it.

When you see the sights, you can press the trigger.

See faster = shoot faster.

Yes.

Speed isn't about yanking on the trigger.

Folks that "wanna-b-speedy"...might never get that they need to be doing the other stuff faster...like actually seeing what is happening and letting the vision teach them.

[Singlestack]

Knowing is the fastest.

Calling every shot and knowing where it went.

[mudman]

I’ve never understood why it has to be accuracy vs. speed. Accuracy (being able to hit what we want to) is just another skill in our shooting toolbox – like drawing the gun, for example.

We don’t say, “I can draw the gun, or I can be fast”. Instead, we learn how to draw the gun quickly. We start by working on perfect technique. Then, through repetition – thousands of draws – we teach ourselves how to do it more efficiently, which results in a fast draw.

Same with accuracy. If you can’t hit what you want to, you’re not in the game. Start by learning perfect technique: what you need to do to hit your point of aim (don’t be satisfied with just hitting the “target” – strive to hit the exact spot you’re looking at through the sights). Once you can execute the technique perfectly (consistently hit your point of aim), then teach yourself to do it faster.

Your overall speed improves as your become more efficient at shooting accurately - just like it improves as you become more efficient at drawing the gun.

Edited October 27, 2010 by mudman

[G-ManBart]

Start with speed! You can always teach someone to be accurate, but if someone doesn't have the ability to shoot fast / move fast then they will never increase in speed.

I like this. I'm relatively new but have done the math over and over comparing different point/time configurations. I made a simple Excel matrix to see the threshold of where speed vs time finally meet. Speed trumps score most of the time as long as you don't have any penalties or mikes. Like I said, I'm new and not even classified yet. But like anything that I get addicted to, I like to analyze the game.

OP-I went through the same thing as you at my first match. I took the time to get all alphas and at the end of the day wondered why I finished so far below everyone else even though I had scored more points.

My current focus is to go as fast as I can go while still getting all of my hits. If I'm missing, I know I'm breaking the shot before getting an "adequate enough" sight picture. I say "adequate enough" because I know that it doesn't have to be perfect to get the hits that I'm OK with. If a target has a no shoot attached, I give it more attention and obtain a better than adequate sight picture.

For now, I'm perfectly happy shooting Alpha-Charlie all day long as long as I'm doing it faster than someone shooting all alphas.

ETA-For reference, someone shooting all Alphas on a 120 point stage in 15 seconds is the same hit factor as someone shooting all Charlies in 12 seconds.

120

#'s Points Time

A 24 120 15

B 0

C 0

D 0 0

HF

Total 120 8

120

#'s Points Time

A 0 0 12

B 0 0

C 24 96

D 0

HF

Total 96 8

Speed doesn't trump score. Look at anybody who wins a stage at a major match and you're going to find they normally shoot something like 95% of the available points. The reason the fast guys are fast, is because they move fast, don't waste time on transitions between targets, don't shuffle their feet every target or two, etc....they're efficient. Often, they aren't shooting terribly fast splits at all.

Your math also assumes Major scoring, and lots of newbies are shooting Minor. Work out the hit factor shooting Minor and it changes the picture quite a bit. I've had to explain this to new shooters several times lately...usually right before a classifier. I'll give them an idea of what their hit factor might be, then explain how much more time they have to shoot an Alpha compared with a Charlie...it's usually quite a bit of time. Take a stage with a hit factor of 5, and each point lost costs you .20, so a Charlie (Minor) costs you .40...pretty much anybody should be able to shoot an Alpha instead of a Charlie in less than an extra .40s.

If you aren't shooting at least 90% of the available points, you're simply trying to go too fast, and it's going to limit how well you do. R,

[Flyin40]

KC just won nationals........because he just got his accuracy to catch up with his speed. The other side to that is how long it took him to learn that lesson.

One thing that I would recommend is that Every practice session needs to start and end with accuracy drills with the sole purpose of focusing on calling shots.

You can work on anything you want in between. Push your limits and shoot faster than your vision allows you to. Learning where you limits are then pushing past them.

Whatever you want. If you practicing regularly and honestly practice calling your shot at the beginning and end of your session you will learn over time to call your shot faster. The funny thing is that it won't take more than 10mins before and 10mins after each session to make a big differnce.

Allowing your vision to dictate when you pull the trigger doesn't mean that on every single shot your waiting for the sights to line up perfectly. Pull the trigger as fast as you can and see what happens in practice. The thing that alot of people lose is the ability to learn from it. It is easy to get caught in pulling the trigger as fast as you can and not learning a damn thing.

One thing that helped me more than anything calling the shot is airsoft. The funny thing is that it has nothing to do with airsoft. When you live an hr from the range and can only make it a couple times a month you spend alot of time thinking about shooting. You build up expectation and a desire to do well. Once you have that expectation you began trying.

You tell yourself "I can only make it to the range 2 times a month so I really have to make it count". What airsoft did for me was allow me not to place expectations on my shooting because it was nothing more than 20 steps to the basement. I was relaxed and actually worked on calling shots. It was nothing to do with airsoft but it let me break a mental barrier I had built up.

Flyin

[flack jacket]

Speed is fun, very fun but not be confused with "hosing".

I've noticed at my club the top GM doesn't pull the trigger any faster than I do, he just ENGAGES so much sooner than I do.

In addition, while moving and shooting sooner he is ensuring he his getting his hits by SEEING the shot, rather than just hosing. IMHO, this is where the accuracy fundamentals kick in.

Lastly, just like the martial arts, he is pre-positioning himself for the next move/shooting position for economy of motion. Hence lower times.

The trick is to perform all those fundamentals all at the same time vs. on-at-a-time. (Meaning, strolling through the course of fire and hosing instead of MOVING and Hitting.)

[ebg3]

Start with speed! You can always teach someone to be accurate, but if someone doesn't have the ability to shoot fast / move fast then they will never increase in speed.

+1

[rooster]

I don't remember who said it but the saying goes something like this. " shoot slow do everything else fast"

[G-ManBart]

Start with speed! You can always teach someone to be accurate, but if someone doesn't have the ability to shoot fast / move fast then they will never increase in speed.

Shooting fast and moving fast are different skill sets. The vast majority of folks starting out can shoot fast, they just can't hit anything when they do.

We talk about saving thousandths of a second on faster shooting skills, but tenths (or more) on movement skills.

[Graham Smith]

When shooting matches I have always tried to be as precise as I can and to do things just a little bit faster each passing month, but I am constantly fighting the side of my brain that keeps shouting "time, time, time, hurry up". Problem is, when I hurry up, I get sloppy. I'm learning, slowly, to control things and as I do I am getting faster because each shot takes a little less time to get on target and each transition is a bit smoother.

I'm not sure that I can come at this from the other direction, to just go fast and slowly refine my shooting so that I become more accurate, but I can appreciate how some people can. I've seen it in action with someone I shoot with. He's always shot fast but over the past couple years, he has gotten a lot more accurate so that he has more A's than he used to and only an occasional miss.

[Paul Burtchell]

Given unlimited time I, like most other "C" class shooters and above can put 2 shots touching, or darn close, in the typical 7-15 yard ranges that most of our targets are placed. BUT, that level of accuracy is not needed nor is it conducive to doing well in USPSA or IDPA. That being said, I think you need that skill set.

On the other hand, I have seen several beginning local shooters that were very inaccurate ,but fast as all get out, make quicker strides in match performances than me.

As others have said ,the really big time savers on a stage are not your splits. It's getting on target sooner and transitioning to the next target where the biggest savings are to be found.

SO, Hell ! I don't know.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Paul Burtchell

[benos]

When a person starts out in this sport, their Temperament determines whether they start out speed or accuracy oriented. I am a precise, controlled, detail oriented person, hence I started out shooting accurately. To me, hitting any target, no matter how small or at what distance, was exciting. The TGO, on the other hand, is an "all over the place" kind of guy. So for him shooting fast was exciting.

In the end, to make into the top bracket, either type must master what he wasn't his innate tendency. For Robbie, it happened when (as Flyin40 said about KC) when his accuracy "caught up" to his speed.

So to me it's not so important where you start out. How you get to where you need to end up is what matters.

be

[Sandro]

Start with speed! You can always teach someone to be accurate, but if someone doesn't have the ability to shoot fast / move fast then they will never increase in speed.

This is very intriguing quote from Max Michael Jr. It is easier to teach a fast shooters to shoot accurately than teaching a accurate shooter to shoot fast. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but the top guy winning almost every National or World Shoot level match “Limited” as an example is winning with a lot of penalties, but he is always shooting faster than his competitors.

Intriguing anyway…

DVC,

Sandro

[CHA-LEE]

Why does it have to be one way or the other? Pick a skill, learn it until you can do it. When you feel confident with that skill pick another and do the same. Then come back to the first skill and find the next level by doing the same process, learn it until you can do it.

For example...... Do you think that even Brian Enos or TGO ever fully perfected either speed or accuracy to its maximim potential? I highly doubt it as shooting is a never ending learning and relearning process.

[LexTalionis]

I agree with all of the above. One will always be driving the other. You can be a quick person working on getting hits or an accurate person trying to go faster. Either way you have to master both to succeed.

Interesting tidbit though. Taran Butler went from 0 to GM in 14 months, and he says, "I practiced like a maniac at first. I worked on raging, insane, mindless speed. I found out later how to be more controlled." (article) Sounds like fun to me

[sigsauerfan]

after the reading of the whole thread,what remains to me is accuracy 1st,speed of execution 2nd.

it's seems like learning to make clean sounding fills on a drum set.

the correct technique first,then drills,drills,drills....practicing motions around the set combined with grip/rebound control/rudiments till you cant get'em wrong.

to me it look all about mastering different moves/motions ,when all moves and motions are well learned and tuned becoming like automatism/instinctive, then the speed increase automaticaly. .

[PINMAN44]

I believe about finding the blend between the two. Not one extreme or the other. Yin and yang. Flyin taught me that achieving the medium between the two extremes will win matches.

However, I was taught by another solid GM that once you master your basics and or essentials that you are to practice at 100 percent and shoot matches at 85 percent. Practicing at 100 percent I was told will allow ones natural set speed to increase in a match.

I believe Jerry the burner was the one who had to put on the brakes in order to start winning.

[NOSAJ19]

Consistancy is the key to a good placement at matches. Those that push to win stages, generally don't win matches. Those that have a good steady reliable stage, each & every stage perform very well.

Aim to win your grade, not the match.

[ChuckS]

When these sort of discussions come up, I like to look at some current major match results to see what worked. This year's Limited Nationals had this for the top 5 shooters. (A small data set, I know, but very interesting)

The most accurate guy came in 4th. The least accurate guy won the match. So basically, you need to get enough points real friggin' fast.

Later,

Chuck

[tpcdvc]

I have spent my entire life practicing challenging things. I have been a professional musician all my life. So, I have trouble with the "go fast, learn accuracy later" concept.

I know for a fact that when I practice a challenging passage that requires speed and accuracy I will learn it much faster doing it correctly every time while slowly pushing the tempo forward. In fact, if I just push ahead trying to get it up to speed immediately I'm actually learning the mistakes over and over. But of course you have to push forward to the point of crash and burn, but, that should only be done in practice so you can immediately correct the fact that you did not do, feel and execute it properly.

I take this same approach with shooting. I hate to waste ammo by not to see the muzzle rise every time. It is too expensive!!

Edited October 28, 2010 by tpcdvc

[Jman]

When these sort of discussions come up, I like to look at some current major match results to see what worked. This year's Limited Nationals had this for the top 5 shooters. (A small data set, I know, but very interesting)

The most accurate guy came in 4th. The least accurate guy won the match. So basically, you need to get enough points real friggin' fast.

Later,

Chuck

Game, Set, Match!

[G-ManBart]

When these sort of discussions come up, I like to look at some current major match results to see what worked. This year's Limited Nationals had this for the top 5 shooters. (A small data set, I know, but very interesting)

The most accurate guy came in 4th. The least accurate guy won the match. So basically, you need to get enough points real friggin' fast.

Later,

Chuck

Open was a different story entirely. R,

[Sandro]

When these sort of discussions come up, I like to look at some current major match results to see what worked. This year's Limited Nationals had this for the top 5 shooters. (A small data set, I know, but very interesting)

The most accurate guy came in 4th. The least accurate guy won the match. So basically, you need to get enough points real friggin' fast.

Later,

Chuck

Bingo!

[Corey]

can someone get a breakdown for all the other divisions as well to see if it was a trend for all of them or just a single division. it very well may be a trend that some divisions are speed based while others are accuracy based. itd be nice to see more than one example.

[ChuckS]

When these sort of discussions come up, I like to look at some current major match results to see what worked. This year's Limited Nationals had this for the top 5 shooters. (A small data set, I know, but very interesting)

The most accurate guy came in 4th. The least accurate guy won the match. So basically, you need to get enough points real friggin' fast.

Later,

Chuck

Open was a different story entirely. R,

Well, tell us the story