JP Enterprises' World 3-Gun Shoot - August - 2014

[kurtm]

As I have said many times, the RM3G table is almost perfect.....except, take the winners out of the equation. This takes care of the run away winners like Casanova and Horner.....and some times Miller! Now re-calculate percentage in division for the rest. That way the second place Tac optics guy isn't called to the prize table in 28th place.

As for pick up guns... the makers put sights on them for a reason!

[Ranger6]

Greatest match in the country! Thanks Denise & JJ. (You guys rock.) Shot and worked the match again this year. (Got to keep on improving.) Recovering from long trip home. Left NM at 5am - arrived home at 10:30pm. Even the dog is worn out.

Ranger6

^{What about that South American team that just found out about the match and wants to come up and shoot next month?}

[stumpyv8]

I'm one of the Brits that was there this year.

I can honestly say it's the best match I've ever been to.

The match itself was awesome, the stages diverse & challenging, the staff & helpers were easily the best & most courteous I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.

The location is stunning. Despite normally living at 200ft above sea level, I didn't seem to struggle with the altitude as much as some. I did try & stay hydrated (does beer count?)

The shooters I met (there were lots, expect Facebook requests as I work out who to stalk send requests to) were all, without exception, amazing. I don't think I saw one person who wasn't smiling.

There's a bit of negative talk about the prize table. It was amazing! All we get over here (if we're lucky) is a box or 2 of ammo regardless of position.

Special thank yous to Denise & JJ. It wouldn't have been possible without your hard work to make the match happen & all the help sourcing firearms. Also, big thank yous to Jim, Nancy, Dan & range mom. It wouldn't have been the same without you......

I have every intention of being back next year.

And yes, I'll bring some more hot sauces

[amccallister]

So... how in the f*#k does a guy that shoots 70% of Horner deserve to walk the table after a jack wagon that shoots 75% of the Heavy Scope "winner". Separate the prize tables.

[Benelli Chick]

So... how in the f*#k does a guy that shoots 70% of Horner deserve to walk the table after a jack wagon that shoots 75% of the Heavy Scope "winner". Separate the prize tables.

I think Daniel is amazing, and RM3G is the kind of match that is his forte. But, this post seems to imply that the winners of the other divisions are somehow inferior. Different challenges. Have you ever tried to carry enough 10 round pistol mags, 20 round rifle mags and pumped that shotgun for 110 yds on average 15 times? I believe the challenge is different, not inferior.

A couple of years ago, Daniel won limited scope by only 7% and one of the He-Man divisions 2nd place was at 83%, which is further behind than 2nd Limited Scope this time. I know that for people who always get the big prize table (tac-scope) it can be troubling.

90 prizes worth $500 or more individually. That is 90 prizes before the trays including cash, rifles, scopes, uppers, a 650, etc. There were trays worth over $500. One of the last prizes taken was worth over $800 because it was hard to take home.

I notice you used HS, not Open for your example. Perhaps because everyone knows that the winner of Open is an outrageously talented shooter that usually cleans everyone else's clock! Did he not slaughter everyone because he was helping the Russians understand the stages? Maybe. Maybe there were a LOT of great Open shooters winning stages and making the scores in Open closer. There are a LOT of awesome shooters in Open.

I do not believe anyone was ripped off. In fact dollar value of prizes between 30 or so to 90 were very similar and worth more than the match entry. Until you have won every division in a match like Rocky Mountain, I think putting "winner" in quotes is condescending.

Oh wait, you didn't even shoot the match...you didn't know how deep the prize table went.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Benelli Chick

[Powderman81]

This was a great match to shoot! This was my 4th major match this year and had the best RO's and probably the best prize table of any of the matches I've seen.

I shot TO this year but will prob have an Open set up for next year's shoot...I need all the help I can get!

Thanks for a great shoot!

Powderman81

[Benelli Chick]

Results are up at: http://rm3g.com/ as well as a new collage from this year!

Again, lots of pictures at: http://rm3gun.smugmug.com/

Denise

[NMBOpen]

Didn't find any photos for squad 2.

[Benelli Chick]

Didn't find any photos for squad 2.

I'll check on that. Do you remember when the photographer was around???

[NMBOpen]

Tuesday, Stage 3 for sure, may have been at other locations/times. Firebird and the Brits.

[thermobollocks]

Did anyone happen to catch an RO with orange socks during the ladies shootoff?

[Dan Sierpina]

Didn't find any photos for squad 2.

I'll check on that. Do you remember when the photographer was around???

How could he miss the flaming shirt?

[Benelli Chick]

Didn't find any photos for squad 2.

I'll check on that. Do you remember when the photographer was around???

How could he miss the flaming shirt?

No comment!!!

[GentlemanJim]

So... how in the f*#k does a guy that shoots 70% of Horner deserve to walk the table after a jack wagon that shoots 75% of the Heavy Scope "winner". Separate the prize tables.

People who complain about prize tables, irritate me in general, they seem like greedy little shallow people.

Ones who complain, and were not even there....I rank them a little lower

Old Jim, Who is getting a little grumpy in his old age

[GentlemanJim]

I'm one of the Brits that was there this year.

I can honestly say it's the best match I've ever been to.

The match itself was awesome, the stages diverse & challenging, the staff & helpers were easily the best & most courteous I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.

The location is stunning. Despite normally living at 200ft above sea level, I didn't seem to struggle with the altitude as much as some. I did try & stay hydrated (does beer count?)

The shooters I met (there were lots, expect Facebook requests as I work out who to stalk send requests to) were all, without exception, amazing. I don't think I saw one person who wasn't smiling.

There's a bit of negative talk about the prize table. It was amazing! All we get over here (if we're lucky) is a box or 2 of ammo regardless of position.

Special thank yous to Denise & JJ. It wouldn't have been possible without your hard work to make the match happen & all the help sourcing firearms. Also, big thank yous to Jim, Nancy, Dan & range mom. It wouldn't have been the same without you......

I have every intention of being back next year.

And yes, I'll bring some more hot sauces

It was a great time shooting with you, And your attempt to kill us all with hot sauce, was intertaining as well

[Gaoler]

I'd shoot these matches regardless of there being a prize table or not.

Technically... Most of the prizes, anything gun related I can't take home anyway as they're controlled under ITAR.

'Sounds silly, but a set of BUIS, box of bullets, ERGO grip, PMAG are all illegal to take out of the USA without applying for and receiving export permits.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Gaoler

[Benelli Chick]

I'd shoot these matches regardless of there being a prize table or not.

Technically... Most of the prizes, anything gun related I can't take home anyway as they're controlled under ITAR.

'Sounds silly, but a set of BUIS, box of bullets, ERGO grip, PMAG are all illegal to take out of the USA without applying for and receiving export permits.

I heard you couldn't even take the squirt gun that all the International Shooters won, home!!

They told me one women from Canada had a pistol charm on her charm bracelet and it was confiscated at the border! Poor Canuks!!! We love you anyway! Thanks for driving so far to leave everything here!

[DocMedic]

So... how in the f*#k does a guy that shoots 70% of Horner deserve to walk the table after a jack wagon that shoots 75% of the Heavy Scope "winner". Separate the prize tables.

Great intellectual discussion. Oh wait..

[Gaoler]

I'd shoot these matches regardless of there being a prize table or not.

Technically... Most of the prizes, anything gun related I can't take home anyway as they're controlled under ITAR.

'Sounds silly, but a set of BUIS, box of bullets, ERGO grip, PMAG are all illegal to take out of the USA without applying for and receiving export permits.

I heard you couldn't even take the squirt gun that all the International Shooters won, home!!

They told me one women from Canada had a pistol charm on her charm bracelet and it was confiscated at the border! Poor Canuks!!! We love you anyway! Thanks for driving so far to leave everything here!

It's not Canada customs... They don't care so much about what we bring home.

It's USBP/DHS that will jack you up if they catch you taking certain items OUT of the USA.

My squirtgun... It's become my every day carry piece

Edited August 15, 2014 by Gaoler

[co-exprs]

So... how in the f*#k does a guy that shoots 70% of Horner deserve to walk the table after a jack wagon that shoots 75% of the Heavy Scope "winner". Separate the prize tables.

Great intellectual discussion. Oh wait..

It's much easier to blame the MD for not designing away the Horner effect than to accept the fact that Horner is so much better. What this very respectable gentleman failed to remember is that with all the prizes pulled off the TO table to support dedicated prize tables, the 70% would still be in the $500 value range of the TO table. Truth is Daniel is phenom on any range, but he especially accels on field courses. Jared finishing as close as he did to Horner was a huge accomplishment. What I found even more troubling about the post is that he clearly has no respect for any shooter not in TO.

[MarkCO]

Wrong Doug. They changed it to the current format within the last 5 years, and it clearly favors open over the other divisions. TAC Optics shooters from about 5th to about 50%, if they were to be bumped to open for a cinched mag touching the ground would walk the prize table significantly earlier. Whee I ran the numbers two years ago, raw scores put a shooter waking at 49th if his scores were in open and 89th if his scores were in Tactical. Pretty big difference, and about a $500 difference in value. Like Mike said, if prize value is important, don't enter Tactical unless you are a top 20 shooter and you will get a better prize.

[Benelli Chick]

I think you will find LI favored this year. Last year, no Daniel. Different favoring...

Doug came when it started 5 years ago. 2010 I think..

When Voight and Miculek were within nanaseconds of each other, the 3rd open was down quite a ways. It depends on how Many people you have in a division winning stages. More different stage wins, closer results in that division.

It's better than giving the second LI guy with 99% of the winner a $150 prize...which I have seen on separate prize tables. It's better than giving a non-tac scope division winner a $650 rifle when the tac-scope winner got a $3000 rifle. (Which I did myself because of trying to get % dollar value on little tables.)

Edited August 15, 2014 by Benelli Chick

[DocMedic]

I seem to remember Horner didn't shoot RM3G last year, and I believe Kalani won. I didn't hear or see anyone complain then about how they walked the Prize table. Simple Solution? Don't let Horner shoot the match

All seriousness though, Maybe what Kurt was discussion about removing the top shooter from the the % Arrangement. (since technically they get their own price table anyways) and based off 2nd place finisher for % on table finish, has merit, statistically anyways.

But What really everyones complaining about is how Horner ROFL stomps us mere mortals.

I just find the whole whining about prize table thing being silly honestly. For my glorious finish in He-man Irons I got a $500+ dollar scope. Lets see for me to get setup for this match it cost me: $2750 for GAP10, $300 for the Vortex Spit-fire, $300+100 for NOVA/Nordic EXT. $350 for Match .308 Ammo. $80 for a Flat of shotgun ammo+slugs and Buck. $300 dollars in gas and expenses through out the match.

Yep sounds to me that I shot HE-Man Irons for the prize table!..

Edited August 15, 2014 by DocMedic

[thermobollocks]

Maybe I'll just cram a +10 extension and an optic on my Supernova and run Open next year.

[Benelli Chick]

Apparently, there is some confusion on the way the calculations work. The table design favors no division innately. It favors

divisions (with higher percentages) in which the top shooters are close in talent and performance.

First, there are match points. If you shot a perfect match this year and won all 15 stages, you would have 1500 match points in your division. There is a stage 100% for each of the 5 divisions on each stage. If the next person in your division had been breathing down your neck the entire time and scored a 99% on each stage, he would have 1485 match points and a 99%. Now, no one, including Daniel, has gotten 1500 points. So the top total match points in each division is given a 100%.

Daniel in LS got 1489 match points. Wow!!! That means he won 13 stages and lost less than 11% on the other 2. Congratulations to Glenn Shelby and Tim Yackley, by the way, for winning a stage each in LS.

Jerry in Open got 1350 match points...which is pretty darn impressive anyway. 6 other people won stages in Open, including one who won 4 stages to Jerry's 5 stages.

Jay in LI got 1307 match points.

Mike in HS got 1424.

Mike in HI got 1434.

But match points alone, does not make the gap between shooters.

In Open, 2nd place got 1327...very close. There were a number of great shooters in Open and they closed the gap by being very good and performing well against each other.

In HS, 2nd place got 1385...a little further away from 1st, but a good score.

2nd in LS, was Jared's 1283. A great score, but compared to Daniel's only 86%. Those points in Open would've been 95%, but had he been scored Open, he would've had different points...possibly more, possibly less.

This system favors the divisions with multiple top competitors that are all winning some stages. If there's a walk away winner, that's where the big gap comes from. Yep, that's Daniel, and that's why Kurt wants to award the top shooters, but move the 2nd place up to the 100% and work off their score, to eliminate some of the gap.

The reason I say it favored LI, was 5 out of 25 of the LI shooters finished with 90% or more, That's 20%.

Only 1 out of 134 in LS, 5 out of 51 in Open, (Which is less than 10%) 2 out of 24 in HS, and 2 out of 13 in HI finished with 90% or more of the top shooter.

(We pull all DQ's and people who needed to leave the match for some reason, so there are more people that shot that are not listed in the results.)

Just remember, you are only scored against the people in your division. Yes, this year someone who shot Open with Limited scope gear, in the middle of the pack would have scored 11% lower in LS. By the bottom, it had smoothed out and the difference wasn't that great.

The system itself doesn't favor any division. But, I believe someone who shoots 90% of the top competitor in his division, be it Jerry or Daniel or Mike, deserves to walk the table before someone who shoots 85% of the top competitor in another division.

Daniel can make it difficult, but sometimes, so can Jerry, or Tony, or Kuan, or a number of other excellent shooters!

The system does make sure that excellent performances in divisions other that Tac-Scope receive recognition and good prizes! It neutralizes the favoritism to Tac-Scope that the separate prize table system gives, by the separate Tac-Scope table getting the one-of-a-kind prizes, most of the guns and almost all the big prizes with little left for the other divisions!!

Also, in the separate table system, 2nd place goes second whether he did very well or not. In a small division, I've seen 2nd place in the 70% area or even below. On our one table system, he would go with other 70% shooters from other divisions. The one table system rewards performance in your own division. By saying 3rd place with 70% deserves the same as 3rd place with 98%...well, that's just like the public school's I got out of! "Everybody is a winner!" "Everybody gets a trophy." "No one should win all the time. We need to spread it around!" "We don't want the other people to feel bad. It ruins their self-esteem!"

Teacher tone/rant OFF!

Edited August 15, 2014 by Benelli Chick