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JP Enterprises' World 3-Gun Shoot - August - 2014


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Just a quick reminder:

As you know, John Paul gives out his JP expert pins to the top shooters, but this year with all the extra prizes, they ended up staying in Minnesota. I gave you the list, and I wrote to those of you who forgot, but I can't read some of the addresses very well either!

I know how much you all value the JP expert pins, so if you were on the list (highlighted in pink on division results) please send me your address (if you haven't already) and I'll get them all to JP!

Thanks to JP for these amazing pins! He provides them himself out of the goodness and generosity of his heart!

:wub:

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The match sounds like a great time. Saw some videos and I'd love to make it out there to experience it.

Been the last two years, and both are my favorite matches out of the ones I've attended.

Hope all of you had a great time! The staff really did an amazing job!

Absolutely did.

Kudos to all the ROs. Very pleased and impressed with how shooters were treated, the friendliness of the ROs, and all were down-to-earth genuine that I observed. They kept things positive, as well as moving the schedule along. Great job.

How would you feel about shooting 3 stages a day, Thursday through Saturday, then a quick morning on Sunday for Shoot-Offs and prizes? Out by noon!

Thumbs-up if going with a 9 stage plan. Getting done and out early on Sunday really helps with travel. See below.

I would like to see the stage count bumped up to 11. One of the common comments I heard was that 3 stages a day was few enough that there was a lot of down time between stages and competitors found it difficult to keep their minds in the game. When I inquired further, they commonly stated that 4 stages a day would be perfect and 5 would be too much. With 11 stages, we could do 4,4,3 and wrap things up Sun morning.

I would like to see 9+ also for selfish reasons......we travel in and RM3G is such a fun match with great stages that I'd prefer to shoot 9+. I realize that is harder on the staff though, so not making a big deal about it, PLUS I agree that it was nice to get done early every day and especially on Saturday. Thus, something like a 4-3-2 sounds good here. The key thing would be if the schedule was moving along like it was this year versus some other matches I've attended which are routinely late. Kudos to RM3G on that.

Team event

No opinion. Didn't really impact or interest me.

Target backers/presentation

Nice job. They were fair and easy to see IMO.

****

Lastly, thanks to all the sponsors, especially JP. Much appreciated and also noted who to support.

Edited by AustinWolv
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This was a great match for so many reasons. It was nice to see the NRA Whittington Center again and have the chance to run and shoot guns in scenery that most people only get to see on a post card. Staying in a tent in the primitive campground was a blessing for me. When life gets so busy that you can't slow down and enjoy some of the simple things, all that it takes is a little time in a tent to get you back on the proper track.

I liked all of the stages and can't really pick a favorite. All of the RO's were great and I hope I was able to shake the hand and personally thank each one on every stage. I would feel bad if I missed one because they all worked very hard and showed great patience.

The shoot off was fun, the happy birthday song, not quite so much. Thank goodness for great hearing protection. The song was appreciated though.

It was great to see the "Rocky Mountain Bunch" (generic term for all of the great people that make this match so special) again and thanks for the good time.

I really liked JP's speech during the awards ceremony. Sometimes we tend to take for granted the great privileges and rights we have available to us. The part of the speech where he talked about the line from Saving Private Ryan was awesome. The privileges and rights we have were not given, they were earned by people who came before us, and it is up to us to keep earning these things by becoming an active participant in the political battles that are taking place every year. Something to keep in mind with primary elections taking place all over the country today.

Edited by Brian Payne
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Thank you to all the sponsors who contributed to the match with special thanks to JP and POF. Cannot stress enough, support those who support us and our matches.

To all the shooters, thank you for the kind words, help and professionalism. Positive attitudes help RO's keep our sense of humor and good spirits. Also, a word of thanks to Squad 9 who helped hang paper, paint and clean the stage after a rain storm when were short on RO's and time.

Hats off to JJ and Denise. Another great match, well done, kudos etc. Yes I will be back next year as long as the Wong's are back :)

I really liked JP's speech during the awards ceremony. Sometimes we tend to take for granted the great privileges and rights we have available to us. The part of the speech where he talked about the line from Saving Private Ryan was awesome. The privileges and rights we have were not given, they were earned by people who came before us, and it is up to us to keep earning these things by becoming an active participant in the political battles that are taking place every year. Something to keep in mind with primary elections taking place all over the country today.

Brain said this so well, I just want to quote it and echo it.

Thank you and my respect to all the men and women who have served, are serving or paid the ultimate price so we can be free.

Thank you,

Jeremy Mulligan

CRO stage 12 RM3G

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Great match!

I shot poorly ..as usual :roflol: BUT.....

Our squad was a blast....I am now way ahead in my drinking for the next couple of years :goof:

Got to learn a new language, or an old one....Im not sure :mellow:

This is my only (must go match).....Denise and JJ work so hard at this ......I cant imagine the stress they have getting this to work!!

Thanks to all who put SO much effort into this match!!!!!

And to the Friends who come from far and wide, Its a Great Pleasue to know and shoot with you!

Jim

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Loved the match... all 15 stages, and I would run out to shoot another one as soon as my recovery (from the 2014 edition) is complete. The RO effort/support was consistent across the board and the prize table (even for my placement) was very nice. Denise has asked for input, and my comments follow.

Regarding 3 or more stages per day or more than 9 stages in a 3-day match.

  • Keep it reasonable for the RO's. RM3G stages are rather unique for the 3Gun circuit... I will shoot every one I can get to.

Regarding a Team Event in the future

  • I would love to have the opportunity to shoot in a Team Event like those conducted at the 2014 match. However, you would have to open it up to a lot more teams making the "shoot-off" before you would get to a team that would benefit from having me as a contributing member. With a shoot off roster limit of the top 4 teams, as done this year... I will be just one of the shooters waiting for the shoot-off to be over.

What I liked about the 2014 version...

  • The long range rifle targets were relatively easy to find and engage (compared to prior years). Whether this was due to a new target placement strategy or painting or backers is not known... but my 68 year old eyes were able to see every target but one without magnification!

Opportunities for improvement...

  • Shooting off the clock (AR 22 on stage 10)... The targets were a fair challenge, but it would have been more interesting to me (my opinion) to have these as bonus targets taken on the clock. My thanks to the staff for allowing the option of painting these targets white. I could not see any part of the target with the orange paint, due to a color vision deficiency.
  • Shooting from the hip (un-aimed shots)... I witnessed one injury taken during the AK portion of Stage 12 and heard of a 2nd that was presumed to be the result of shots being relatively far off target (low). I don't practice shooting from the hip, and cannot visualize a situation where this capability would be a good tactical solution. Please note that I seriously enjoyed the strong side/weak side challenge of Stage 7 and I had the option of aiming at these targets.
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GOOD CALL ON THE HIP SHOOTING! ...or any un-aimed fire for that matter.

ELIMINATE THIS!!!!!

I saw some low shooting w/ the AK-74, too; and the pistol shooting around the sonotube 2 years ago was a danger waiting to happen, IMHO.

I believe it's dangerous because, aside from the most egregious and obvious muzzle deviations that can be caught at the start, the RO and shooter HAVE NO IDEA where the shots are going to go at first.

Some of the low shots w/ the AK ripped into the target stand (steel) which was WAY too close for a rifle.

Walking fire in on a target is not what 3-gunners do.

Pick-up guns can be made to be fun and demonstrative without resorting to un-aimed fire.

mi dos centavos

ericm

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Opportunities for improvement...
  • Shooting off the clock (AR 22 on stage 10)... The targets were a fair challenge, but it would have been more interesting to me (my opinion) to have these as bonus targets taken on the clock. My thanks to the staff for allowing the option of painting these targets white. I could not see any part of the target with the orange paint, due to a color vision deficiency.

CRO for stage 11 here (the one with the AR-22), so I'm a bit biased. I've thought very much about this stage, mostly because I wanted all the shooters to have a consistent crack at it, but also because it was such a freaking bear to administer for several reasons. As for painting, locating the targets in that array was not part of the stage's challenge, so when (I think) two colorblind shooters piped up that they couldn't see orange on mud, it was a no brainer to me.

When off the clock, there's no real difference between a hit that subtracts 5 seconds from your time and a miss that adds 5 seconds to your time. It's a psychological difference: "bonus" shots make everyone feel better because they think they're getting rewarded for going above and beyond the skills required by the stage, and if they miss, they think "oh it was a bonus anyway so it doesn't matter." The top 5% of shooters are probably going to shoot well enough in general that they'll make the shots, so you'll still be gauged against the 100% score of someone who made the shots.

The difference between on and off the clock adds different layers to the shooting challenge. In this case, bonus targets worth five seconds with no applicable FTE penalties wouldn't be particularly tempting if shooters were on the clock. This component of the stage, in my opinion and without consulting the stage designer, adds a premium to accuracy, since speed is useless. While of course you can go overboard on accuracy, I think this particular stage benefited. It would be a bit silly to add the AR-22 portion to one of the stages that already had 400/500 yd targets.

There's a few more things to consider. We limit the ammo the shooter can expend, so penalizing the target the same as one where it's up to the shooter to bring enough probably doesn't make sense. Further, our poor stats shack has to deal with enough without having one weirdo stage whose scoring doesn't line up with the other 14 stages in the match. USPSA handles this with "high value" targets, which again don't necessarily jive with the idea of limited shots, and are USPSA's idea of making difficult targets "worth" engaging. RM3G, as everyone knows, handles this via the "don't be a jerk" rule.

If I can share some observations from watching a couple hundred shooters of various skill complete the stage, the off the clock component made for some interesting engagements on the last target. People would pull the very last shot because they knew they needed to get out of the tent after making it, but then they wouldn't make it, and they'd have to settle back into the rifle again, or curse because they just burned their last round. People also shot like they were on the clock when they weren't, which is part of the reason why I think doing it off the clock presents a fun and interesting shooting challenge. It was also a different sort of course engagement, and if a stage or two out of 5-10 at some match can mix things up without being inconsistent or unrealistic, I'm all for that. As a course designer for a couple of USPSA clubs, we don't trick people, but we present a variety of challenges so that shooters must exercise a broad set of skills. Sometimes they may not know they need these skills until they read the WSB :ph34r:

The biggest part that got me is it was HUGE for the RO to whack the buzzer consistently for every single shooter. It made starts for this stage about a billion times harder than when the shooter starts normally (whether loaded/hands at sides, table start, briefcase-in-hand start, wrists above shoulders, whatever). I would like to figure out a way to make that more consistent. Obviously, putting the shooter on the clock would make it easier for shooters to get consistent attempts at the course. Making the shooter wait to get out of position until the buzzer starts would also have helped keep things consistent from shooter to shooter, I think, but once the match started, obviously we have to stick with the brief or give a boatload of reshoots. So, it should have been consistent for all shooters, and consistently hard for me :) Maybe instead we could start the clock before the first rimfire shot, then yell the time of the final rimfire shot to the scorekeeper (25.41!), and at the end subtract the rimfire portion from the total time. But, not all timers pick up rimfire worth a squirrel fart.

I always want ways to improve things, believe me, but I don't think bonus targets on the clock would accomplish quite the same thing on this particular stage.

I'm also a sadist, so I'd have liked to see it done at the very end of the stage rather than the very beginning :D

Disclaimer: The preceding is all my observations and opinions, not an official ruling of any sort.

Edited by thermobollocks
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One more quick special thanks!

To JP, Para Ordnance, Firebird Precision, R & R Targets, Ray and Zev Technologies, Doug, George and anyone else I forgot who lent guns to the International Shooters when they didn't have their own or couldn't get them into the country!

Thanks to Hornady for allowing them to preorder ammo, too!!!

The last minute denials from BATFE were quite frustrating but as usual, 3-gunners and 3-gun sponsors stepped up!! :bow:

Thanks to all of you!

:wub: Denise

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Welcome to the RM3G work out program! If you want to burn flabby fat, shed those cinnabunns, improve the share holder dividends at... Where ever they make Ibuprofin, then come and RO the RM3G World Shoot. You will spend 9 glorious days running in the desert, dodging snakes, tiptoeing through cactus minefields and swatting mosquitoes aggressive enough to bite through a suit of armour. A quote from Denise Johnson..."Oh yes... There will be blood, there will be sweat and there will be tears. Lots of tears."

Just stepped on the scale. I lost 6lbs in 9 days. Take that Richard Simmons!

Edited by co-exprs
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Welcome to the RM3G work out program! If you want to burn flabby fat, shed those cinnabunns, improve the share holder dividends at... Where ever they make Ibuprofin, then come and RO the RM3G World Shoot. You will spend 9 glorious days running in the desert, dodging snakes, tiptoeing through cactus minefields and swatting mosquitoes aggressive enough to bite through a suit of armour. A quote from Denise Johnson..."Oh yes... There will be blood, there will be sweat and there will be tears. Lots of tears."

Just stepped on the scale. I lost 6lbs in 9 days. Take that Richard Simmons!

I know! I lost 5...in 2 and a half weeks! And I ate GREAT dinners, trust me GREAT!!! I got fed every night and still. Maybe we should charge more as shooting AND weight loss! Two for the price of one! :roflol:

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Opportunities for improvement...
  • Shooting off the clock (AR 22 on stage 10)... The targets were a fair challenge, but it would have been more interesting to me (my opinion) to have these as bonus targets taken on the clock. My thanks to the staff for allowing the option of painting these targets white. I could not see any part of the target with the orange paint, due to a color vision deficiency.

When off the clock, there's no real difference between a hit that subtracts 5 seconds from your time and a miss that adds 5 seconds to your time. It's a psychological difference: "bonus" shots make everyone feel better because they think they're getting rewarded for going above and beyond the skills required by the stage, and if they miss, they think "oh it was a bonus anyway so it doesn't matter."

For your consideration, Thermo... suggesting the idea of having these targets as "bonus" was meant to also imply that there would be no penalty for FTE or Misses. At the start (buzzer) a shooter would have the option of attempting to collect a bonus or not. If the shooter could not see the targets, or the iron sights on the stage gun, or quickly exit the shooting position, then the decision gets even easier. Nobody needs to record the time taken for the last shot out of the tent and the course of fire starts consistently for everyone.

For the record, I got all the hits with no make up shots, then I was "penalized" (relative to other shooters) for getting started on the shotgun portion of the stage because I am less physically fit and flexible as other members of my squad that ranged from 10 - 40 years younger. There's no fairness in getting old... it just happens (if you're lucky). Having the targets as a bonus (without miss/FTE penalties) is much more than a "...psychological difference". This is not a complaint! Just sayin'

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I follow, but consider the scoring mechanism in play here. Your standing is based off whoever shoots the course the best, right? It's probably going to be one of those speedy guys who gets me winded just watching them. It's a good bet that they will go for the bonus and receive it, therefore the 100% score will be based off of someone who achieved the bonus. The final effect to people's stage percentages is the same whether it's counted as a penalty for FTNs or a bonus for hits.

The timing would definitely be easier, and I can see how the "get in the tent or don't" mechanic might add an interesting choice. Still, though, anyone in contention for a stage 100% is probably not going to have trouble with the tent either.

It reminds me of the Steel Challenge stage "Speed Option" as it originally was. Anyone roughly B-class or higher is going to take the option plate because the bonus is greater than the time spent.

Edited by thermobollocks
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Bonus targets suck. We had 1 bonus target a few years ago at 500yds. One of the shooters then assumed that all targets beyond 400 were bonus and spread the word inaccurately. It was a mess because the rest of the shooters were made to be needlessly confused. Bonus targets only really benefit the elite shooters. In the end winners still win. I'm tall with sore knees. Every time they put a low port on a USPSA pistol stage, I get penalized for being tall. Whittington Center is well over a mile high. The stages cover ground and will always reward those who are younger and more fit. The rimfire rifle had to be shot off the clock due to the potential reliability of rimfire shooting in general. In addition, it's just plain cruel to make open and tac-o shooters run iron sights.

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That took awhile! Lot's of pictures!

LT Gunther, CSI from New Mexico took pictures for us this year!

They are now posted on SMUG MUG: http://rm3gun.smugmug.com/

You should be able to copy them right off the website. Go to a gallery and find a picture you like, then right-click and copy!

Special thanks to LT Gunther for volunteering to take on this enormous job!

We have a video on the way from Corporal O'Donnell of the USMC. It should be up in a couple of weeks!

Thanks again!

:wub: Denise

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GOOD CALL ON THE HIP SHOOTING! ...or any un-aimed fire for that matter.

ELIMINATE THIS!!!!!

I saw some low shooting w/ the AK-74, too; and the pistol shooting around the sonotube 2 years ago was a danger waiting to happen, IMHO.

I believe it's dangerous because, aside from the most egregious and obvious muzzle deviations that can be caught at the start, the RO and shooter HAVE NO IDEA where the shots are going to go at first.

Some of the low shots w/ the AK ripped into the target stand (steel) which was WAY too close for a rifle.

Walking fire in on a target is not what 3-gunners do.

Pick-up guns can be made to be fun and demonstrative without resorting to un-aimed fire.

mi dos centavos

ericm

I agree with this. Hip shooting a AK or shotgun at close range is not needed - IMHO.

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Benelli Chick,

Thank you just doesn't seem like enough but the whole HAWKINS FAM-DAMNLY wants to thank you for putting us to work! I guess the saying: "The punishment will continue until morale improves" is in effect.

What a long shoot for some of us, we arrived to the Shooting Center on the 29th and left on the 11th in the wee morning.

Arriving to Andy Horners house in Montrose, CO. which is at over 8,000 feet to help us get used to the altitude I guess helped...I didn't get sick or have any headaches.

And one last thank you for putting us on an easier stage than last year...that was a blessing. Stage 1 this year was a walk in the park compared to last years stage:)

We will miss you next year but will return in 2016 for sure.

Keep the lights on for us,

Sincerely,

Busyhawk

AKA Sergeant Major

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Are the division results any where ?

Thanks !

I made an Excel spreadsheet from the original pdf file. For those impatient ones like me you can sort it fairly easily to look at division scores. The excel file is the following link - Unofficial Results

To check the results in your division - click the filter at the top of the Class Column and make sure only the Class you are interested is checked. Then scroll over to the last column (Total Match Points). Click the little sort icon and select "Sort Largest to Smallest"

As everyone else has said - fantastic match, had a great time and looking forward to next year. Thank you to all the Staff, RO's and especially Denise and JJ.

Steve

PS - Denise if this is not ok, please let me know and I will take down the file.

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Are the division results any where ?

Thanks !

I made an Excel spreadsheet from the original pdf file. For those impatient ones like me you can sort it fairly easily to look at division scores. The excel file is the following link - Unofficial Results

To check the results in your division - click the filter at the top of the Class Column and make sure only the Class you are interested is checked. Then scroll over to the last column (Total Match Points). Click the little sort icon and select "Sort Largest to Smallest"

As everyone else has said - fantastic match, had a great time and looking forward to next year. Thank you to all the Staff, RO's and especially Denise and JJ.

Steve

PS - Denise if this is not ok, please let me know and I will take down the file.

All good! My web guy is taking the long way home!

All those impatient people out there will be pleased!! :goof:

Just remember, prize table goes by % in your division not match points. They will be similar, but not the same.

Edited by Benelli Chick
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Just remember, prize table goes by % in your division not match points. They will be similar, but not the same.

In my humble opinion, that was the one big drawback of the prize table. Not every division had the same spread of skill. I suppose it gives all competitors access to the same prize table, but it just seems to dilute an individuals performance within their own division.

It also seemed to produce some weird anomalies...like if I had shot the same match with the same guns, but been scored open, I would have been 10 percentage points higher than I was. I actually felt like I had a really good match in my division, finishing 21st out of 135 or so, but was around 90 walking the prize table. Again, if I had changed my division to open, I would have been to the prize table after around 50.

Anyhow, I still really enjoyed the shooting, the location, the ROs and the match in general, so it wasn't a big deal. But I think I prefer it when the prize table is divided by division....or at least when the prizes are apportioned to the divisions based on the size of the division.

Edited by Onagoth
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RM3G does a combined prize table. Use it to your advantage. Next time shoot in a division which Horner isn't in and walk the table sooner. To assume that dedicated tables are more fair is a misconception that only the Tac O guys share. Most of the matches I have shot with dedicated tables, the Tac O table had more than it's share of the prizes and the smaller divisions got less than their attendance deserved. The only fairly distributed, dedicated table I have seen was at the Noveske match. There is no one best way to run the table. The one advantage to RM3G's combined table is that it encourages participation in divisions other than Tac O.

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Just remember, prize table goes by % in your division not match points. They will be similar, but not the same.

In my humble opinion, that was the one big drawback of the prize table. Not every division had the same spread of skill. I suppose it gives all competitors access to the same prize table, but it just seems to dilute an individuals performance within their own division.

It also seemed to produce some weird anomalies...like if I had shot the same match with the same guns, but been scored open, I would have been 10 percentage points higher than I was. I actually felt like I had a really good match in my division, finishing 21st out of 135 or so, but was around 90 walking the prize table. Again, if I had changed my division to open, I would have been to the prize table after around 50.

Anyhow, I still really enjoyed the shooting, the location, the ROs and the match in general, so it wasn't a big deal. But I think I prefer it when the prize table is divided by division....or at least when the prizes are apportioned to the divisions based on the size of the division.

The prize table at RM3G has been run the same way for many years, I've been going for 5 years and it was that way before I started attending. In fact I believe it is the most fair system and have used it at our match, the NWMGC, for the last 2 years. There is no perfect prize table, don't complain, do as Mike said and use it to your advantage or attend matches that do it the way you like.

Doug

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