IDPA GM class

[Bob Hostetter]

GM in IDPA ... ? In USPSA the only way to make GM is thru the classifier system if I remember correctly. This creates a group of GM's that can shoot classifiers well but don't perform nearly as well in matches. Only the other hand if it is based on match results on say sanctioned matches other then the Nationals, you would soon end up with more GM's then you expected or you would have top Masters skipping smaller sanctioned matches to avoid getting bumped to GM. If you make so it is only based on the Nationals (or the National is a necessary part of the process to get bumped) who would have to much sure that all Masters who wanted to attend could or you might be providing a kind of HQ enforced sandbagging. You would also be creating a classification that would be pretty much trophiless because if the standards were high enough to matter you would rarely see 3 or more GMs at the smaller sanctioned matches to qualify for a trophy. Of course GM's probably aren't terribly concerned about trophies except to forward to their sponsors. And speaking about sponsors, for a sanctioning orginization that's official position is against monetary rewards for it's members based on performace they might not want to create an "Elite" classification where all the potential sponsors would look first to spend their money.

Personally I am all for it IF it is done right ...

[lugnut]

GM in IDPA ... ? In USPSA the only way to make GM is thru the classifier system if I remember correctly.

Nope, not correct. From the rule book:

"winning High Overall in an Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class. In addition, if you

score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be immediately moved to Grand Master class for that division."

[Glshooter]

I have always thought it was a bit too easy to make master. I have seen guys have a good day and win EX class although they really can't come near master classifier scores or hang with masters on a regular basis. I think that is the main reason you see such a big gap in talent level in master class. But you can't undo time and the damage is done.

I agree that I go to matches to win and I look at the overall standings more than anything else so a GM class is not a huge deal. People want a GM class so they don't have to compete against guys like Sevigny and Vogel who really only show up at national championships. Looking at the nationals results, I can only see a handful of guys at that level. 95% of major IDPA matches won't have guys at that level. But if you are going to do it, it would really need to be well thought out. You can't bump someone to GM on performance at any old match since it depends on who shows up. I would agree to bump to GM based on nationals performance like USPSA does where the winner and anyone 95% of the winner gets bumped to GM but that can't be the only way to get to GM. Not everyone can travel across the country to get to a match. So what is the classifier criteria? A lot of shooters stop shooting the classifier after they reach master so is there really accurate data on what a GM classifier score should be? Gary had the idea of 65 seconds in SSP I believe. I think very very few people can do that but then again, if you look at the numbers in USPSA production for example, only 56 out of 5472 classified shooters or just over 1% are good enough to be a GM. What do you think is the number of IDPA shooters who can shoot the classifier in under 65 seconds 1% and is 1% an acceptable level for the number of IDPA grand masters? Any thoughts on what the classifier times should be? Considering it is 98 seconds for SSP master I was thinking more like 75 seconds myself. If you create a new class, there needs to be at least a few people in it to make it worth while. I think 75 seconds is low enough that the talent level needed to do it is quite high, but not so low that it is unobtainable.

Edited September 28, 2010 by Glshooter

[jar]

I think that's common amongst the top shooters in the sport like yourself, however you could also ask why have any classes at all for that matter? Seriously. Not suggesting we do that but it wouldn't matter too much to me. Not that it would ever happen.

I mostly look at match results to see how I did relative to shooters I know to gauge how well I did. The class system allows me to do this with shooters I don't know. Does seeing SSP/EX tell me as much about how I should expect to do against someone as seeing Aaron or Jeff N's name on the sheet, no, but it tells me a lot more than just seeing Joe Shooter from out of state.

I think classes are a useful way to track your progress as a shooter, but that's all for me. Does a 1st SSP/MM matter to me in the sense of winning the medal, no. But it does matter in the sense of being a step on the road to being competitive for HOA, absolutely.

The upshot of all that rambling is I think the class system is useful, but I don't care about it that much. A while ago I definitely thought a GM class was needed, but now I don't really care one way or the other.

[jmorris]

If you look at nationals results from 1st to 3rd in division the spread is similar all the way from MA to MM but you can bump sandbaggers in MM, SS and EX, the pile at MA is just going to be there. In any event adding GM to IDPA would go against “One of the unique facets”.

Rule book

Page 1 paragraph 2

“One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new

or average shooter…” A GM would be neither new or average.

[steel1212]

If you look at nationals results from 1st to 3rd in division the spread is similar all the way from MA to MM but you can bump sandbaggers in MM, SS and EX, the pile at MA is just going to be there. In any event adding GM to IDPA would go against "One of the unique facets".

Rule book

Page 1 paragraph 2

"One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new

or average shooter…" A GM would be neither new or average.

Neither is the majority of EXP that should be MA or the MA that should be GMs.

[Strick]

While I really don't dislike the idea of a GM class I still don't know what problem it is supposed to solve. I have won DC as an Expert and as a Master at regional matches and have been in the top 1.5% overall at state matches but I am not sure if I could shoot a 65-70 second classifier (haven't shot one in a while though so maybe....). Does that mean I can't compete with Masters or does that just mean that I need some more work so I can compete with 4 or 5 guys like Sevigny and Vogel?

[steel1212]

While I really don't dislike the idea of a GM class I still don't know what problem it is supposed to solve. I have won DC as an Expert and as a Master at regional matches and have been in the top 1.5% overall at state matches but I am not sure if I could shoot a 65-70 second classifier (haven't shot one in a while though so maybe....). Does that mean I can't compete with Masters or does that just mean that I need some more work so I can compete with 4 or 5 guys like Sevigny and Vogel?

When you won was Bob or Dave or anybody else that is a USPSA GM? Not comparing the 2 but don't know how to say it any other way. I really don't care either, I shoot the best I can and let it fall where it may. I can't shoot a 70 second classifier either.

[Strick]

When you won was Bob or Dave or anybody else that is a USPSA GM?

It was an IDPA match so I didn't check USPSA classifications.

I was just pointing out that the current MA shooters can be competitive and local, regional, and state levels. The only time that there seems to be a serious difference is at Nationals. Does the classifications need to change or do shooters like myself just need to step up our game?

Edited September 29, 2010 by Strick

[Bill Nesbitt]

How many people are we talking about? Dave and Bob and who else? I just looked at the results from the last 3 Nationals. There might be a half dozen others that can, maybe, come close to their scores but some of them only shoot the Nationals once in a while.

I think it's a waste of time and effort to add another class. If you want to run with the big dogs you've got to get off the porch.

Practice, work out, etc. Me, I'm gonna join a gym.

Bill

[sirveyr]

Relax, there isn't going to be a GM class. I know that it was announced at the Nats, but come on guys, look how long it took to get a questionable preliminary rules addendum released. I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

[tackdr1ver]

I for one am all for a GM class. I think that it should be made compulsory that shooters should have to shoot classifiers multiple times per year and also adhere to the existing rules of being promoted for performance at regular matches. Also, the one in three trophy rule is kind of overkill. I would rather see trophies and prizes for the top three in each division. Not that I even really care about prizes or trophies. But the reality is, our sport is an expensive one, it would be nice to win something that might help offset some of its costs. As most of us are working people and shooting is our hobby. Yanno?

Sandbagging in my opinion, stinks. I try as hard as I can every match, every shot and every stage. Even if I completely mess up every stage of the day I can still find a small victory somewhere within the confines of a match.

Edited because I wanted to point out that i for one have never won a match, but I think it would be a good thing for people who do win to get something cool along with a trophy.

Edited September 29, 2010 by tackdr1ver

[Shibby]

I'd rather see them rework the classification system adding a class in between Expert and Master, then add a GM class. It's too easy to make Master now and there are too many. When I made Master this year, I remember thinking I had too much left to learn to be a "Master".

Just adding a GM class would only pull a dozen or so shooters out of Master. Judging from the numbers from Nationals the class needs to be cut in half.

[jmorris]

I think we have a winner for the "why" question.

There might be a half dozen others that can, maybe, come close to their scores

[Duane Thomas]

When I made Master this year, I remember thinking I had too much left to learn to be a "Master"

I felt much the same way. But I think that's indicative of the mindset that got you to Master in the first place. I remember talking to Jerry Barnhart (a great shooter if ever there was one) who said to me, "You should finish every match thinking there's still something you need to work on. I know I do."

[lugnut]

When I made Master this year, I remember thinking I had too much left to learn to be a "Master"

I felt much the same way. But I think that's indicative of the mindset that got you to Master in the first place. I remember talking to Jerry Barnhart (a great shooter if ever there was one) who said to me, "You should finish every match thinking there's still something you need to work on. I know I do."

Well I agree with Jerry 1000%! I've often wondered how I'm getting worse as I get so much better. I think as we develop and improve there are always "BIG" things that we need to work on... it just doesn't end does it? The perfect match/performance doesn't really exist yet we keep trying...

Edited September 29, 2010 by lugnut

[GForceLizard]

Just for fun.

Times for ESP CDP SSP ESR SSR

GMaster (GM) 76.00 78.00 84.00 84.80 87.00

Master (MA) 89.41 91.76 98.82 100.82 102.35

Expert (EX) 108.57 111.43 120.00 122.00 124.29

SShooter (SS) 138.18 141.82 152.73 154.73 158.18

Marksman (MM) 190.00 195.00 210.00 212.00 217.50

[Jeff Phillips]

This is going to sound rather harsh, but I firmly believe it is the truth....

The whole classification system is really just a feel-good thing, who's only real purpose is to make a less skilled shooter feel like he or she is better than they really are. This is an effective tool for newer shooters, as they don't feel overwhelmed by trying to compete with much more skilled shooters; however, once a shooter crosses over into the high expert or master catagory, they should begin to understand and accept the fact that even though you may win first place expert, you may very well have still gotten your ass handed to you by the 5 master class shooters, so what was really the point of "winning" when you were still in 6th place.

This same concept applies to creating a GM class. When one looks at the overall rankings of a match, the finishing order isn't going to change if we have a Master, and a Grandmaster class, it will be the exact same overall finishing order, its just that the top master will now get a meaningless piece of paper.

As far as sandbaggers and grandbaggers.... who cares, we are competing, at least in the northwest, for a bunch of pieces of paper, and 5 plaques. If someone wants to sandbag and needs to subvert the classification system in order to feel good about themselves to win 1st place marksman, they have bigger personal issues to deal with. If someone wants to grandbag the classifier, good for them, it means their scores will be compared to more skilled shooters, hopefully giving them more incentive to get better.

The only true winners are the ones who have the low score at the end of the match, and the shooters who currently hold a master classification should understand and accept that. Once that is accepted, there will be no need for a GM class.

[gb32]

Whenever this subject comes up I notice a division among MA class shooters. Those that are not truly competitive in bigger IDPA matches(Nationals, S&W Indoor, Carolina Cup etc) and those that are. Not to overly simplify things, but Group 1 is all for a GM class. Group 2 is concerned only with the criteria for goal setting purposes(if at all). Not taking anything away from Group 1, MA is an achievement worth being proud of. If they make a GM class these guys will get some plaques and recognition. Nothing wrong with that. When I got my SSP MA card I was proud of it. Then I went to my first Nationals and found out how much more work I needed to do if I wanted to compete with those guys, which I do. That's my decision. Everyone has their own motivations for competing. I know what mine are.

For the record, I'm in Group 2.

[Bones]

You needn't guess at Classifier times (a GM wouldn't). The desired population percentage at GM, the existing Classifier scores in the database, a Stats 101 class and student's T-table will yield whatever Classifier time you desire for each Division.

The only practical effect will be that MDs at sanctioned matches will have to order a maximum of 5 more plaques. The 1st MA will still be the 1st MA if a "GM" shows up. What really changes?

Craig

Edited September 30, 2010 by Bones

[CHARLES D]

GM Class?? I think IDPA should put more effort in rewritting the Rule Book. In addition, rework the classifier stages. The classifier stages have been the same stages since day one. Once these two items are fixed, then why not start a GM Class. It would be something new to go for.

[Steve J]

Before we go any further, who are "they"?

Joyce Wilson

[Pittbug]

I think there should be a GGM (Great Grand Master) class - calling it first!

I've always held the opinion that the classes were just for bragging rights. People who are serious about competing and winning are looking at raw times.

I'm off to get some ice cream and watch TV.

[Steve J]

GM Class?? I think IDPA should put more effort in rewritting the Rule Book. In addition, rework the classifier stages. The classifier stages have been the same stages since day one. Once these two items are fixed, then why not start a GM Class. It would be something new to go for.

The same public announcement made it clear that there will not be a new rule book.

I don't see anything wrong with the classifier stages. They work basic skill sets and it's not easy for most to put all 90 rounds together and do well.

[CRDB]

It will change nothing, if you shoot a big match with 10 masters are you shooting for 1st MA or DC, a MA/GM on his game is still going to get DC what would it change.

I think there should be a min of 3 people in a div/class to get a trophy, if we get GM and only one is in each division at a match I say no trophy, playing for DC or nothing anyway.

If a shooter wins DC at 3 State level or above matches in 12 months in the same division, then they get a bump.

Edited September 30, 2010 by CRDB