"Local Rules," revisited

[Joe4d]

The thing to keep in mind is although we have a "no local rules" rule, and also other rules about what a club can and cant do, There is actualy little to no enforcement and not really anything you can do. Basically you get a, Dont like it dont shoot there response. Not much else section and area leadership will or even can do. Can kinda seem cavalier and piss you off but there really isnt much else.

My feelings are if you use the USPSA name you should follow USPSA rules, if you dont or cant follow the rules, Dont call yourself USPSA, any club that doesnt, should be asked to either start following rules, stop using USPSA's name, or be forced to stop for trademark infringement. Like Allan said a new club is asked to sign an agreement, if they cant or wont follow the rules they shouldnt be using the USPSA name.

[rgkeller]

USPSA needs ranges more than ranges need USPSA.

Folks in Iowa and Oregon may have plenty of wide open spaces and ranges to suit but many USPSA members do not and have to work hard just to find ranges and harder to keep our monthly matches.

[JThompson]

USPSA needs ranges more than ranges need USPSA.

Folks in Iowa and Oregon may have plenty of wide open spaces and ranges to suit but many USPSA members do not and have to work hard just to find ranges and harder to keep our monthly matches.

This is true.... bottom line is you kick too much and you might not have a place to shoot. Some people don't have many options.

JT

[Tom D]

Linda is correct on this.

Rules 2.1.2 and 2.1.4 dictate safe angles of fire. If the club decides that is is unsafe to shoot into the sides,(mabye that berm is low, has too many rocks) there is nothing to prevent this. When you shoot indoors you can not sfely shoot into a wall. There is nothing in the rules to say you must allow it. It makes it a litle harder to do course design but thats all.

Tom

Sorry Tom, you're a bit off on this one. 2.1.2 and 2.1.4 cover construction of the stage, not competitor actions. If the club sets up the course to not allow the shooter to shoot at the side berms, maybe covering the wall or berm in no shoots, but the competitor still shoots there, there is no DQ. I mean intentionally, not an AD while loading or moving, just a plain shot. While the course design should take these angles into account, there is no rule allowing for a penalty if the shooter doesn't. Some clubs try to enforce this by saying a shot into the sideberm is a DQ. There is nothing to support that absent something else occurring.

I don't see anywhere I said anything about competitor actions. 2.1.2 and 2.1.4 only deals with setting up the course. If the club has a policy against shooting in a side wall. there is nothing in the rules to prevent it. I said nothing about DQ'ing anyone. I was only addressing a "local" rule.

As far as the local rules go, I hate to say it but I'd rather have fewer clubs abiding by the rules than more clubs doing what they want. This is a topic that has come up several times in my area. There are some clubs that have legitimate desires to restrict shooter actions. Unfortunately I can't support some of the solutions they want to use.

In this case, I don't really see anything that goes against the rules to do group bagging/unbagging. I think it's a rather silly way to go about business but I don't know that it isn't allowed either. The question I would ask is what they would do if you just tried walking around with your gun holstered. Would they DQ you for something? Or would they just ask you to leave the range and not come back.

As far as USPSA needing clubs more than clubs need USPSA. There are a lot of intangible benefits clubs get from USPSA that go beyond money. Most clubs I know have active shooters that provide a great deal of service to the host club, new props, targets, maintanence, enthusiastic support, publicity from media... Even beyond this we provide a basis for many ranges to justify their existence. In some jurisdictions a club with no LE and no Competitions occurring is viewed unfavorably.

TDZ. If you think clubs are just going to do what we say because we say it...well good luck with that. Every good USPSA club requires someone to be in contact with the host club. Explaining what we do, why we do it and why the rules need to be followed. There are reasons for all the rules. Explain why they should be followed. If we take the "stick your head in the sand" or "take my ball and go home" approach we will be short clubs to shoot at.

[Joe4d]

If they arnt following USPSA rules, we already dont have a place to shoot as what they are doing isnt a USPSA match, and we shouldnt let them use our name and trademark.

I'm not advocating booting a club or slaming someone for mistakes or odd ball stuff that comes up, sometimes a MD gets sick someone steps to the plate and comes up with a coupel illegal stages, its a learning experience, What I am talking about is the ranges that day in and day out dont follow the rules, make up their own rules, know they are doing this and dont care and wont change, members should not tolerate this and USPSA leadership should not tolerate this either.

[rgkeller]

If they arnt following USPSA rules, we already dont have a place to shoot as what they are doing isnt a USPSA match, and we shouldnt let them use our name and trademark.

I'm not advocating booting a club or slaming someone for mistakes or odd ball stuff that comes up, sometimes a MD gets sick someone steps to the plate and comes up with a coupel illegal stages, its a learning experience, What I am talking about is the ranges that day in and day out dont follow the rules, make up their own rules, know they are doing this and dont care and wont change, members should not tolerate this and USPSA leadership should not tolerate this either.

Well, if USPSA wants to get tough, I know of several clubs that will save many thousands of dollars in activity and classifier fees and whose members will save on membership fees.

[pvhendrix]

Unless the USPSA club owns the range (unusual in my experience) we are usually guest on the range property. There are range rules that at times must be considered. We have a local gun club that does not allow targets to be set that would allow rounds to impact the side berms. This is a Range rule for all disciplines that use the range. Their side berms are over 20 foot tall, higher than most other local ranges impact/back berms.

We have another range that has concrete dividers or center walls on some of their bays. Again targets are not allowed to be set so that rounds impact into the walls. If a round impacts the concrete wall (not a ricochet) you the shooter are asked to leave the match and range, as it is a safety issue, it would have to be an intended shot or a negilent discharge to strike these walls. No one seems to think this is a gross negative imposition on our matches.

Again some modicum of common sense must come into play.

Edited September 20, 2010 by pvhendrix

[Alan Meek]

If they arnt following USPSA rules, we already dont have a place to shoot as what they are doing isnt a USPSA match, and we shouldnt let them use our name and trademark.

I'm not advocating booting a club or slaming someone for mistakes or odd ball stuff that comes up, sometimes a MD gets sick someone steps to the plate and comes up with a coupel illegal stages, its a learning experience, What I am talking about is the ranges that day in and day out dont follow the rules, make up their own rules, know they are doing this and dont care and wont change, members should not tolerate this and USPSA leadership should not tolerate this either.

Well, if USPSA wants to get tough, I know of several clubs that will save many thousands of dollars in activity and classifier fees and whose members will save on membership fees.

Maybe they will save that money and maybe the USPSA members will take their money to a range that operates and follows USPSA rules. I know of a club that generates more profit from USPSA matches that they do Skeet and Trap shoots, but they still treat the USPSA poorly. If a club that is currently bringing 12,000 to 15,000 a year in USPSA fees does not want to follow the rules, what would they do when the USPSA activity ceases. I kind of believe that the people that shoot USPSA do so because of the rules, consistency, classifications and so forth. And in time a club that stops holding USPSA matches will loose that customer base.

For facilities that do not follow USPSA rules and try to make local rules IMO the best course of action is for the USPSA members to try and change these facilities from the bottom up using peer pressure to make that happen.

Alan

[rgkeller]

If they arnt following USPSA rules, we already dont have a place to shoot as what they are doing isnt a USPSA match, and we shouldnt let them use our name and trademark.

I'm not advocating booting a club or slaming someone for mistakes or odd ball stuff that comes up, sometimes a MD gets sick someone steps to the plate and comes up with a coupel illegal stages, its a learning experience, What I am talking about is the ranges that day in and day out dont follow the rules, make up their own rules, know they are doing this and dont care and wont change, members should not tolerate this and USPSA leadership should not tolerate this either.

Well, if USPSA wants to get tough, I know of several clubs that will save many thousands of dollars in activity and classifier fees and whose members will save on membership fees.

Maybe they will save that money and maybe the USPSA members will take their money to a range that operates and follows USPSA rules. I know of a club that generates more profit from USPSA matches that they do Skeet and Trap shoots, but they still treat the USPSA poorly. If a club that is currently bringing 12,000 to 15,000 a year in USPSA fees does not want to follow the rules, what would they do when the USPSA activity ceases. I kind of believe that the people that shoot USPSA do so because of the rules, consistency, classifications and so forth. And in time a club that stops holding USPSA matches will loose that customer base.

For facilities that do not follow USPSA rules and try to make local rules IMO the best course of action is for the USPSA members to try and change these facilities from the bottom up using peer pressure to make that happen.

Alan

The USPSA clubs I have in mind shoot either at a private range leased from the government or on a government owned range.

The fees paid to the range/government are a very minor part of their range revenue.

The "transgressions" are a DQ for pointing a handgun over the berm and shooting into the side berm or wall.

Edited September 20, 2010 by rgkeller

[JThompson]

If they arnt following USPSA rules, we already dont have a place to shoot as what they are doing isnt a USPSA match, and we shouldnt let them use our name and trademark.

I'm not advocating booting a club or slaming someone for mistakes or odd ball stuff that comes up, sometimes a MD gets sick someone steps to the plate and comes up with a coupel illegal stages, its a learning experience, What I am talking about is the ranges that day in and day out dont follow the rules, make up their own rules, know they are doing this and dont care and wont change, members should not tolerate this and USPSA leadership should not tolerate this either.

Well, if USPSA wants to get tough, I know of several clubs that will save many thousands of dollars in activity and classifier fees and whose members will save on membership fees.

Maybe they will save that money and maybe the USPSA members will take their money to a range that operates and follows USPSA rules. I know of a club that generates more profit from USPSA matches that they do Skeet and Trap shoots, but they still treat the USPSA poorly. If a club that is currently bringing 12,000 to 15,000 a year in USPSA fees does not want to follow the rules, what would they do when the USPSA activity ceases. I kind of believe that the people that shoot USPSA do so because of the rules, consistency, classifications and so forth. And in time a club that stops holding USPSA matches will loose that customer base.

For facilities that do not follow USPSA rules and try to make local rules IMO the best course of action is for the USPSA members to try and change these facilities from the bottom up using peer pressure to make that happen.

Alan

No indoor ranges then... guess that leaves my home club out as you can't shoot into a cement wall.

Edited September 20, 2010 by JThompson

[Joe4d]

Why do we keep harping on side berms ? As has alrerady been pointed out that isnt a local rule, The examples in the original post werent necessarily a violation of the rule book. There is nothing in USPSA that says you cant place targets in a manner that bullets hit or dont hit anywhere you want, That isnt the point we are talking about actual rules being ignored.

That is correct USPSA doesnt own the ranges but we do own the trademark, When a club signs a contract to use USPSA's trademark they agree to follow the rules.

A club certainly can start a new game, various 3 gun matches did this, some are great some crashed and burned.

[rgkeller]

Some have stated that DQing for hitting a side berm/wall or DQing for having a holstered handgun outside the supervision of a range officer is a violation of USPSA rules.

IMO, that stance is arguable, but if USPSA agrees and decertifies clubs with those "local" rules, USPSA will lose both match revenue and members.

I, for one, hope that USPSA does not go down that path.

[JThompson]

Because you can get DQed for shooting a side wall. There is no rule that allows that. As long as you don't break the 180 you are good to go. Now that should be up to the MD to set targets so they can not be engaged into a side wall. If a shooter finds a hole in the design and shoots that target, there is no provision to DQ them, but they are going home just the same. Also, here's a small one, but we don't allow handling of any mags in the safe area and that includes empty mags... that is not within the rules, but if you violate the "club" rule you could be banned.

We can dance around the "rules" issues all night, but the fact is that some clubs impose rules that are not within the book. Anyway, I think there are deal breakers and not. If it goes to far I would choose not to shoot there and might contact the USPSA about having them pull the affiliation. Most of us know that a few extra rules may be imposed for safety or the range at some clubs... you have a choice not to shoot there if it bothers you and to take more steps if it's a gross violation.

I think you have to consider what is worth losing a place to shoot and what is a minor inconsistency.

JT

Edited September 20, 2010 by JThompson

[Seth]

I'm not NROI, but I am the match director at one of the largest, if not the largest match in Area 8. As such, I have to meld the club rules with the USPSA rule book. As Paul mentioned, there are restrictions that the club imposes that might seem to offend the rule book, but its my job to setup the match in a manner such that they are synergistic.

However, there are cases where the shooter MUST remember that they don't own the range, they're renting access. Our pistol bays (10 of them) are down the hill and down range from the skeet fields. If you're down the hill from the skeet fields, the club rules mandate eye protection at all times.... but USPSA rules are more vague. If you fail to wear your eye protection, you'll be asked to leave the property. NOT DQ'd. Its the club rule and you're a guest.

Another example: The club rule is that all rounds must impact a berm. My job as match director is to make sure that the stages I setup insure that all rounds hit the berm. I don't get to put targets whereever I want... I put targets where the rounds hit the berm. Common sense.

As for discipline program for an illegal stage or a club rule usurping USPSA rules, my response is less than politically correct. There are a lot of good people that volunteer a lot of their time to put the best possible USPSA match on the ground as humanly possible. We do so with the best intentions of following the USPSA rules and the rules that the club puts on us... If you're going to sanction me for an illegal stage, you're gonna be looking REAL hard to find me to setup next months match.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Seth

[John Heiter]

I'm sure there are situations where local rules REALLY impact the ability to run a USPSA match such as the ranges that do not allow multiple shots within so many seconds. I'm not sure this situation is really one of them and it doesn't strike me as one worth getting worked up over. It may not be covered in the rule book but I've had this discussion before in an RO class and the simple answer was "If the club rules don't allow you to do it then don't do it".

I'm not on the rules committee and I haven't been anointed by Amidon either, so I can't officially say what the "INTENT" of 3.3 was, but my guess is that it was intended to stop clubs from materially changing the way stages were run, scored, and officiated and to maintain a minimum safety standard at all matches. If these people were saying it was ok for everyone to stay hot and unholstered as long as they didn't put their finger in the trigger or that you could pay $5 to change a Mike to an Alpha, USPSA might step in. Having a local rule that makes it appear safer to the casual observer probably isn't going to raise too many red flags.

[Alan Meek]

Setting up a USPSA match on a range that has requirements of where you can place targets, directing rounds to impact into the berms, not having rounds impact the side berms. These are requirements that can be addressed in stage design and builds.

Years ago it was pretty silly with clubs having their own rules, maximum velocities to make major and stuff of that sort.

Knowing that the equipment I have and the rules of the sport are supposed to be consistent at any USPSA affiliated match is one of the main reasons I participate in USPSA events. Shooting stages that are designed to take in the requirements of the range with angles of fire. That is part of the challenge. I shoot regularly at the longest running USPSA affiliated match facility in VA, And it is in an apple orchard and there are some serious stage design requirements. But the match directors over the years have made it work and it works very well.

If I shoot at a match where a stage that has been set up illegally, it is not that big of a deal. Match directors and their crews bust there butts to put on matches and if something slipped through the cracks that is not a major concern. Where I draw the line is when the MD's intentionally setup a stage to be illegal because they are trying to screw with an individual. I do not feel there is no place in USPSA for that type of an attitude.

I have seen clubs that have decided to drop their affiliation and they have gone from being prosperous to struggling with small turnouts, so did they really safe any money as they were hoping. The activity fees are only $3.00 per competitor so with match fees that are in the $15-$20 range the clubs still pulls in $12-$17.

[mactiger]

I seriously doubt if anyone will see the "USPSA Police" come around to discipline anybody for having to work with the requirements of their range. That's not what USPSA and NROI are all about. It makes more sense to educate people to the proper, rule-directed way of doing things, especially at a local level. When you get to level II, hopefully the range used for that has no restrictions on the way we do things, but as many have stated, there are no rules preventing a range from saying you can't shoot into the side berm, and there is a rule that allows for a DQ if that direction is specified as "unsafe", as it very well may be for an indoor range.

A good example is Nationals at PASA in Barry, Illinois. There are concrete bay dividers between several large bays, and we never, ever set targets so that bullets impact those walls. That's range policy, and does not violate any USPSA rules. We go to great pains to make this happen without having to specify shooting that way as an "unsafe direction", therefore there is no need to apply that rule.

The reality is that while it would be Practical Shooting Utopia to have everyone on the same page, with no range issues to deal with, it's just not possible in many instances. Therefore, USPSA clubs must deal with the policies and rules imposed on them by the range where they shoot. To do otherwise would be to lose a significant number of USPSA clubs and places to shoot. I'm confident that NROI/USPSA is not going to get into the "big brother" business at the local level.

Troy

[JThompson]

I seriously doubt if anyone will see the "USPSA Police" come around to discipline anybody for having to work with the requirements of their range. That's not what USPSA and NROI are all about. It makes more sense to educate people to the proper, rule-directed way of doing things, especially at a local level. When you get to level II, hopefully the range used for that has no restrictions on the way we do things, but as many have stated, there are no rules preventing a range from saying you can't shoot into the side berm, and there is a rule that allows for a DQ if that direction is specified as "unsafe", as it very well may be for an indoor range.

A good example is Nationals at PASA in Barry, Illinois. There are concrete bay dividers between several large bays, and we never, ever set targets so that bullets impact those walls. That's range policy, and does not violate any USPSA rules. We go to great pains to make this happen without having to specify shooting that way as an "unsafe direction", therefore there is no need to apply that rule.

The reality is that while it would be Practical Shooting Utopia to have everyone on the same page, with no range issues to deal with, it's just not possible in many instances. Therefore, USPSA clubs must deal with the policies and rules imposed on them by the range where they shoot. To do otherwise would be to lose a significant number of USPSA clubs and places to shoot. I'm confident that NROI/USPSA is not going to get into the "big brother" business at the local level.

Troy

Sanity from my mentor...

JT

[Singlestack]

I'm thinking we need a ass kissing emoticon.

[JThompson]

I'm thinking we need a ass kissing emoticon.

Well, it happens that we agree on that one, but if you really think it appropriate, see below.

Edited September 21, 2010 by JThompson

[LChico]

Linda is correct on this.

Rules 2.1.2 and 2.1.4 dictate safe angles of fire. If the club decides that is is unsafe to shoot into the sides,(mabye that berm is low, has too many rocks) there is nothing to prevent this. When you shoot indoors you can not sfely shoot into a wall. There is nothing in the rules to say you must allow it. It makes it a litle harder to do course design but thats all.

Tom

Sorry Tom, you're a bit off on this one. 2.1.2 and 2.1.4 cover construction of the stage, not competitor actions. If the club sets up the course to not allow the shooter to shoot at the side berms, maybe covering the wall or berm in no shoots, but the competitor still shoots there, there is no DQ. I mean intentionally, not an AD while loading or moving, just a plain shot. While the course design should take these angles into account, there is no rule allowing for a penalty if the shooter doesn't. Some clubs try to enforce this by saying a shot into the sideberm is a DQ. There is nothing to support that absent something else occurring.

At my local club, the general membership cannot shoot into the side berms. Only USPSA, IDPA & SASS shooters at scheduled matches may shoot into side berms. This was a hard won concession, based upon the fact that a "safety officer" is one-on-one with the shooter & literally stays at the shooter's elbow. But, we have one bay where shooting into the right side berm is prohibited. There is a mobile home park on the other side of that berm. We either simply do not use that bay, or put targets only on the left & back berms. If a round leaves the range over that right side berm and strikes anyone in the mobile home park, it is a moot point whether I can DQ the shooter or not. The USPSA group would lose the range, as well as the 900+ club members who do not shoot our discipline.

Along the same lines, a number of years ago I shot at Gateway in Jacksonville FL. There were several bays where we could not shoot into a particular side berm, because the EPA had determined that a protected species of turtle nested in that area. While this does not exactly fall under "legislation or legal precedent," many regulatory agencies have the ability to shut down our ranges. While you might not be able to DQ a shooter, there may be severe negative consequences (fines or closure of the facility) even though this is not a safety violation.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited September 21, 2010 by LChico

[G-ManBart]

While it would be annoying to be forced to bag in between stages, it's not changing the way we actually shoot the match. R,

[Joe4d]

Again, noone is advocating some time of enforcement procedure against mistakes, short notice issues or coming down on new set up crews, Nothing in the rules says you cant require I protection at all times, You have quite a bit of leeway in "Reasonable directions of match officials" Its perfectly reasonable to be asked to wear eye protection on the range, and not shoot concrete dividers, Also noone expects every match to be perfect, things happen,

Whats not reasonable is to have RO's yelling cover, or telling you you have to have a hammer down on a loaded chamber start with a Browning Hipower, or not having a WSB and then changing the COF as you go along, and doing things like that over and over and over.

[pvhendrix]

Again, noone is advocating some time of enforcement procedure against mistakes, short notice issues or coming down on new set up crews, Nothing in the rules says you cant require I protection at all times, You have quite a bit of leeway in "Reasonable directions of match officials" Its perfectly reasonable to be asked to wear eye protection on the range, and not shoot concrete dividers, Also noone expects every match to be perfect, things happen,

Whats not reasonable is to have RO's yelling cover, or telling you you have to have a hammer down on a loaded chamber start with a Browning Hipower, or not having a WSB and then changing the COF as you go along, and doing things like that over and over and over.

Never seen any of this at a USPSA match as cover is not an issue and a Browning Hi-power would shoot Limited or L-10, not Production.

[Seth]

I started this thread because, perhaps, we as members, especially since many of the people here are those who shoot the major events and/or have a say in how the rules are written will read this. We may need to consider some sort of discipline program for clubs that operate under the banner of USPSA rules and yet incorporate illegal stages, or make up the rules as they go along, or fail to meet the requirements for classifier stages, etc. I have observed this at many clubs and I really think it's a serious problem, because it is a direct attempt to circumvent the preemptive power of the USPSA rules as written (see quote above).

I've read your post multiple times now and I keep getting more and more aggravated. I'm not pissed at the the desire to have consistent applications of the rules, because we ALL agree that that's the best and most equitable way to compete no matter where we shoot.

What irritates me is the suggestion that "it is a direct attempt to circumvent the preemptive power of the USPSA rules as written". I suggest that YOU grab a hammer and screw gun and go volunteer to help put matches on the ground. I know for sure that all match directors have their own styles and preferred courses of fire, but none of us are intending to circumvent the rules for some personal vendetta. None of us are sacrificing our time and our sweat to be petty. We do it for a host of reasons, but mostly we do it because we love the game and want to see if thrive.

If I put a classifier on the ground and its wrong, its wrong for one reason. I screwed up and set it up wrong. If it means that much to you, I suppose you'll either fix it OR show up to setup next time to make sure its right.

If the club insists that you bag your gun, I suggest that you follow their rule.. If you're not a member of the host club, you're a guest and you need to obey their rules so as to not ruin the access to their ranges for the rest of us. What you PAID for was range access, targets, sticks, stands, pasters, the crew that cuts the grass, insurance and a bunch of other things... AND the USPSA fee. You didn't pay ME.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Seth