"Local Rules," revisited

[twodownzero]

So, here's a new one. I've actually never been a fan of the "cold range" rule that USPSA has. I actually think that expecting people to walk around with "cold" guns goes against the spirit of our sport, and breeds a level of complacency that, in general, encourages unsafe actions. To counter this, we have, of course, established "safe areas," and attempted to create a rule that is "safer" without demanding that everyone run a hot range. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, and it serves our purpose. And because we expect every USPSA club to follow the same basic range procedures, I would basically expect the rule to be universal. In other words, we expect that we can show up, put our belt on, head to the safe table, and walk around with an unloaded gun. I have shot matches in Illinois, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey, and never observed any other range procedure. It's common to the point of almost being an uninteresting thing to talk about in the open forum, right?

Until yesterday. I shot at a new club for the first time, and they have a very interesting rule. When it's your squad's turn to shoot, you go to the safe area and put your gun on in the same manner in which we're used to. At that point, one is prohibited from walking anywhere on the property except to the "bays." You have to take a leak? Take your gun off. You have to go get a score sheet or whatever? Take your gun off. Basically, you get the drill. Something as basic as being able to walk around with a holstered gun that has a clear chamber, an empty magazine well, and the hammer down, is apparently a problem.

I decided to check the rule book, because I know we've talked about "local" rules and there are a lot of clubs that try to enforce them. It contains this gem:

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations

may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not

in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without

the express consent of the President of USPSA.

I'm pretty sure we're all aware that USPSA doesn't take these local exceptions lightly. It is also a bit strange to me that the club in question has existed for longer than there has even been a USPSA, to my knowledge.

I'm actually observing this being more and more common lately, perhaps it's because I'm a Range Officer and thus more likely to notice, but I don't think so. It actually seems to me that the expansion of our sport the last few years since gun have been flying from shelves left and right, has brought about an attitude where people think that the fact that people are new is an excuse to ignore the rules in the interest of getting them interested, coming back, and being part of the sport. I'm personally hostile to such an idea, because I am convinced that our rules promote safety in the overwhelming majority of cases, and I see no basis on which to supplement our existing rules with more and unnecessary rules.

I started this thread because, perhaps, we as members, especially since many of the people here are those who shoot the major events and/or have a say in how the rules are written will read this. We may need to consider some sort of discipline program for clubs that operate under the banner of USPSA rules and yet incorporate illegal stages, or make up the rules as they go along, or fail to meet the requirements for classifier stages, etc. I have observed this at many clubs and I really think it's a serious problem, because it is a direct attempt to circumvent the preemptive power of the USPSA rules as written (see quote above).

The other problem is that I hate to seem like a rule Nazi, but as far as I'm concerned, if it's a USPSA match, there is only one rule book. How we go about solving this situation without animosity towards the person who makes the complaint remains an open question to which I've never had a good answer.

Sorry for the brain dump in advance, but this post has been a long time coming. Yes, all of us who staff matches are all volunteers, but that doesn't mean that we can do whatever we want.

[MarkCO]

Well said, and it should be well received by USPSA as well.

[JFlowers]

Often we forget that we are not shooting at a USPSA facility, but at a private or public shooting facility that is hosting the USPSA club. This means that on top of the "legislative or legal" rules, we often have to deal with the facility's rules as well. At one club I shoot at has the oddball facility rule is that we can not put shots into the side berms.

In your specific case I would approach the MD and respectfully try to determine the source of this rule. Is it something the facility dictates? If its not, then I would work to determine why the club has implemented this rule. Often they are due to old incidents or simple misunderstandings. In that case, involve the Section Coordinator and the Area Director in educating the club's officers on why such a rule is a waste of time, effort, and should be changed.

[ima45dv8]

I've actually never been a fan of the "cold range" rule that USPSA has.

Which rule is that?

[twodownzero]

Often we forget that we are not shooting at a USPSA facility, but at a private or public shooting facility that is hosting the USPSA club. This means that on top of the "legislative or legal" rules, we often have to deal with the facility's rules as well. At one club I shoot at has the oddball facility rule is that we can not put shots into the side berms.

In your specific case I would approach the MD and respectfully try to determine the source of this rule. Is it something the facility dictates? If its not, then I would work to determine why the club has implemented this rule. Often they are due to old incidents or simple misunderstandings. In that case, involve the Section Coordinator and the Area Director in educating the club's officers on why such a rule is a waste of time, effort, and should be changed.

You missed the point.

It doesn't matter if it's a "facility rule" or not. USPSA matches have one rule book and one set of rules. If USPSA doesn't issue an exception, you cannot enforce a "local" rule.

This is intentional and it's not optional. Your fact pattern illustrates precisely the type of scenario that I am saying should not be tolerated.

I've actually never been a fan of the "cold range" rule that USPSA has.

Which rule is that?

Although the words "cold range" don't exist in our rule book (at least to my knowledge), for the sake of this discussion, assume that I'm talking about 10.5.1 and 10.5.13, and the spirit of 10.5 more generally.

Edited September 20, 2010 by twodownzero

[JFlowers]

No, I didn't miss your point.

But whats the alternative? Shut down 25-50% of the USPSA matches nationwide because the facility on which they are being held expects the club to adhere to the same rules as every other shooter at the facility? Awful, arrogant of us to expect them to treat us differently. Or do we deal with what we have to deal with and keep shooting, especially at the club level. Now I do know that some clubs, when hosting Level II matches, apply for waivers from the host facility for these policies so that the USPSA rules are the rules for just the reasons you are getting at.

My point to you was, it is up to us to try and educate, legislate, work from within clubs, facility BODs, etc. on why some rules, policies, etc are not good rules or policies and to change them. And sometimes that process can lead us to and understanding of why a rule or policy is just something we have to live with if we want to shoot on that facility.

[Jman]

Are you suggesting that the rules of our game should usurp a local ordinance or private property usage agreement or....?

We are minuscule group compared to the general gun/shooting community.

The USPSA needs ranges. The last thing we can afford to do is tell them how to run them.

[juan]

I thought I would give another perpestive.

Im on the board of directors of a local rod and gun club, we have a cowboy and a idpa club that use are range.

The money they bring into the rod and gun club is very little.

we would bring in the same or more if they did not shoot, and if it was opened for the public [rifle and pistol]

we are small so the whole range must shut down for the events.

USPSA members must get involved in these ranges they shoot at. get on the board, go to the meetings. have in put on the rules of where you shoot.

[LChico]

In other words, we expect that we can show up, put our belt on, head to the safe table, and walk around with an unloaded gun. I have shot matches in Illinois, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey, and never observed any other range procedure. It's common to the point of almost being an uninteresting thing to talk about in the open forum, right?

Until yesterday. I shot at a new club for the first time, and they have a very interesting rule. When it's your squad's turn to shoot, you go to the safe area and put your gun on in the same manner in which we're used to. At that point, one is prohibited from walking anywhere on the property except to the "bays." You have to take a leak? Take your gun off. You have to go get a score sheet or whatever? Take your gun off. Basically, you get the drill. Something as basic as being able to walk around with a holstered gun that has a clear chamber, an empty magazine well, and the hammer down, is apparently a problem.

I decided to check the rule book, because I know we've talked about "local" rules and there are a lot of clubs that try to enforce them. It contains this gem:

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations

may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not

in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without

the express consent of the President of USPSA.

I'm pretty sure we're all aware that USPSA doesn't take these local exceptions lightly. It is also a bit strange to me that the club in question has existed for longer than there has even been a USPSA, to my knowledge.

I decided to check the rule book, also. I cannot find a rule that requires clubs to let shooters roam about the range with a gun in the holster, unloaded, empty magazine, etc,. The RULES address the fact that shooters are to come to the line with an unloaded gun. The RULES cover how we make sure the gun is unloaded before re-holstering after a stage. The RULES cover what happens within the shooting bay. There is no rule that requires a facility to allow you to wander around non-shooting areas with an unloaded, holstered gun. So while this particular policy may be tedious and unfamiliar, it is not outside the rules.

By the same token, facility rules that prohibit shooting into side berms, or shooting steel in certain bays, are not against USPSA rules. While they may prohibit creative stage design, there is no RULE that says you must be allowed to shoot in a specific direction, or at specific types of targets.

I started this thread because, perhaps, we as members, especially since many of the people here are those who shoot the major events and/or have a say in how the rules are written will read this. We may need to consider some sort of discipline program for clubs that operate under the banner of USPSA rules and yet incorporate illegal stages, or make up the rules as they go along, or fail to meet the requirements for classifier stages, etc. I have observed this at many clubs and I really think it's a serious problem, because it is a direct attempt to circumvent the preemptive power of the USPSA rules as written (see quote above).

I agree that "making up the rules as they go along" is a real problem. Most commonly, they fall into two categories: people playing by an old rulebook, and people who misinterpret the "level one exception" to mean that they can do literally anything they want at a local match.

Those who quote "old rules" are usually well meaning shooters who last took an RO class in the late 1990's and failed to keep up with updates. They take the 10 question on-line test, and have never looked back in the rule book. They really work hard at the local level, and once the correct rules are pointed out, will be incorporated into their routine.

The "level one exemption" is frequently misused to cover a variety of local club "regulations."

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a

long course).

The rule was meant to recognize that some local facilities would not have sufficient walls or vision barriers to create truly free-style courses (you can shoot it, if you can see it). So local clubs can use a box in a field course and tell everyone they must shoot the following targets only from this box. It does not mean you can change the "range commands." It absolutely does not mean you can alter safety rules or "wink" at other rules infractions.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited September 20, 2010 by LChico

[Jman]

USPSA members must get involved in these ranges they shoot at. get on the board, go to the meetings. have in put on the rules of where you shoot.

Excellent point.

Rio Salado is a prefect example (our president is a Master Class Limited shooter) and I'm sure their are more like it around the country.

[twodownzero]

I decided to check the rule book, also. I cannot find a rule that requires clubs to let shooters roam about the range with a gun in the holster, unloaded, empty magazine, etc,. The RULES address the fact that shooters are to come to the line with an unloaded gun. The RULES cover how we make sure the gun is unloaded before re-holstering after a stage. The RULES cover what happens within the shooting bay. There is no rule that requires a facility to allow you to wander around non-shooting areas with an unloaded, holstered gun. So while this particular policy may be tedious and unfamiliar, it is not outside the rules.

By the same token, facility rules that prohibit shooting into side berms, or shooting steel in certain bays, are not against USPSA rules. While they may prohibit creative stage design, there is no RULE that says you must be allowed to shoot in a specific direction, or at specific types of targets.

I'm sorry to say, sir, but you're wrong. I already quoted the USPSA rule that prohibits "local rules" without permission of the President of the USPSA. This includes "side berm" and "holster gun" rules other than those in the rule book.

Our rule book states the circumstances in which one can be DQed from a USPSA match. Walking the wrong place with a holstered and unloaded gun isn't among them. Neither is shooting into the side berm, absent other facts, such as a 180 break or other unsafe action.

There are no local rules in USPSA. That's the purpose of this post. If you weren't aware that was the case, I hope that this post proves enlightening.

No, I didn't miss your point.

But whats the alternative? Shut down 25-50% of the USPSA matches nationwide because the facility on which they are being held expects the club to adhere to the same rules as every other shooter at the facility? Awful, arrogant of us to expect them to treat us differently. Or do we deal with what we have to deal with and keep shooting, especially at the club level. Now I do know that some clubs, when hosting Level II matches, apply for waivers from the host facility for these policies so that the USPSA rules are the rules for just the reasons you are getting at.

My point to you was, it is up to us to try and educate, legislate, work from within clubs, facility BODs, etc. on why some rules, policies, etc are not good rules or policies and to change them. And sometimes that process can lead us to and understanding of why a rule or policy is just something we have to live with if we want to shoot on that facility.

There are two alternatives:

1. Don't put on USPSA matches if you don't want to follow the rule book.

2. Follow the USPSA's rules, including applying for and acquiring an exemption before enforcing any non-USPSA, local rule.

We have our rules and they are the same everywhere that the USPSA flag flies. We don't have to enter into discussions with local club politicians and range lawyers about what the rules are. That's why we have a national rule book and a bunch of graceful RMIs to teach classes on the same.

The USPSA needs ranges. The last thing we can afford to do is tell them how to run them.

But that's exactly what our sport requires. I'm sympathetic to the fact that we do need ranges. But we do not need ranges at the expense of our rule book. If your club wants the publicity of putting on USPSA matches, it must follow the rule book. It's not optional; they're not suggestions.

Edited September 20, 2010 by twodownzero

[schroed]

The reason for this rule by the request of the land owner-who lets us use has land for matches.

I do not like the rule but having no range would really suck.

[Alan Meek]

If you look at the USPSA Club Affiliation Form a representative from the club signs this document that the club will hold USPSA matches and follow USPSA Rules.

[JeffWard]

" But that's exactly what our sport requires. I'm sympathetic to the fact that we do need ranges. But we do not need ranges at the expense of our rule book. If your club wants the publicity of putting on USPSA matches, it must follow the rule book. It's not optional; they're not suggestions. "

That's a nice idea... But for Level I matches, in urban areas, it is very infrequently practical.

Many people do NOT have dedicated, free-shooting, 180 degree bermed, facilities to work with. If the only USPSA sanctioned club you have is an indoor club you're really limited. You cannot walk freely outside the shooting area with a holstered gun, even if it is unloaded. If you held a match on our outdoor public line, you'd have to modify the USPSA rules, or waiver the club rules. In urban areas, that get a LOT of usage, matches are NOT profitable. These places have people coming in and using a 3ft wide bay for $15-20, that will be used for 20-30 minutes, then replaced with another paying shooter. That's $50-60 per hour, times 10 bays.... No USPSA club is paying $400-500/hr to use the facility. The "publicity" of hosting USPSA/IDPA matches is a DROP in the ocean of their revenue from the "public line". More often, it's run at a loss.

If a private club is NICE enough to ALLOW USPSA matches on their facility, we should obey their rules where we can. We cannot shoot a Level II or higher match there, but we can do what we can do.

Thank god I shoot in St Pete, where we have a GOOD facility... We cannot shoot left or right in 5 of 7 bays, but it's a hell of a lot better than indoors, in a range. If I had to drive the 45 minutes each way to a true 180 degree-free-shoot facility... I'd shoot much less.

Jeff

[MarkCO]

twodownzero, while I totally agree with your basic premise, I think you missed the point of LChico's (Linda is the newly elected A6 Director BTW) post w.r.t. stage design.

[Tom D]

Linda is correct on this.

Rules 2.1.2 and 2.1.4 dictate safe angles of fire. If the club decides that is is unsafe to shoot into the sides,(mabye that berm is low, has too many rocks) there is nothing to prevent this. When you shoot indoors you can not sfely shoot into a wall. There is nothing in the rules to say you must allow it. It makes it a litle harder to do course design but thats all.

Tom

[Graham Smith]

I decided to check the rule book, also. I cannot find a rule that requires clubs to let shooters roam about the range with a gun in the holster, unloaded, empty magazine, etc,. The RULES address the fact that shooters are to come to the line with an unloaded gun. The RULES cover how we make sure the gun is unloaded before re-holstering after a stage. The RULES cover what happens within the shooting bay. There is no rule that requires a facility to allow you to wander around non-shooting areas with an unloaded, holstered gun. So while this particular policy may be tedious and unfamiliar, it is not outside the rules.

Linda is correct in saying that there is nothing that says you have to be able to freely walk around with a holstered gun.

Every State, County, Municipality, and Range is going to have rules and those rules may not make it possible to do things exactly the same way at every single range that hosts USPSA matches. In the example the OP gives, what's wrong with keeping your gun in a bag till it's your turn to shoot then going to the line and unbagging as part of the make ready and rebag afterwards? I've seen people do that as a matter of course because they did not want to be pasting and/or ROing with a gun in a skeleton holster.

[twodownzero]

twodownzero, while I totally agree with your basic premise, I think you missed the point of LChico's (Linda is the newly elected A6 Director BTW) post w.r.t. stage design.

I actually didn't miss it. I, perhaps foolishly, ignored it because I agree with him her (sorry!) on that point entirely.

I decided to check the rule book, also. I cannot find a rule that requires clubs to let shooters roam about the range with a gun in the holster, unloaded, empty magazine, etc,. The RULES address the fact that shooters are to come to the line with an unloaded gun. The RULES cover how we make sure the gun is unloaded before re-holstering after a stage. The RULES cover what happens within the shooting bay. There is no rule that requires a facility to allow you to wander around non-shooting areas with an unloaded, holstered gun. So while this particular policy may be tedious and unfamiliar, it is not outside the rules.

Linda is correct in saying that there is nothing that says you have to be able to freely walk around with a holstered gun.

Every State, County, Municipality, and Range is going to have rules and those rules may not make it possible to do things exactly the same way at every single range that hosts USPSA matches. In the example the OP gives, what's wrong with keeping your gun in a bag till it's your turn to shoot then going to the line and unbagging as part of the make ready and rebag afterwards? I've seen people do that as a matter of course because they did not want to be pasting and/or ROing with a gun in a skeleton holster.

The rules don't say that you have to be allowed to walk around with a holstered gun.

They do, however, point out the reasons why you can be disqualified. Walking around with an empty, holstered gun is not among them.

Edited September 20, 2010 by twodownzero

[mhs]

The rules don't say that you have to be allowed to walk around with a holstered gun.

They do, however, point out the reasons why you can be disqualified. Walking around with an empty, holstered gun is not among them.

If there are no designated safe areas prior to the shooter's meeting, and at the shooter's meeting the MD requests that you don't walk around with an empty, holstered gun, I think 10.6.1 could be used.

[Aristotle]

TDZ: Linda ≠ Him , Linda = Her

[G-ManBart]

Ah yes, the fledgling idealist....if it were only so easy.

The fact is, at many/most clubs, if the USPSA (and usually IDPA) shooters tried making demands of the club, they'd quickly be shown the door.

At a lot of clubs, the general membership hates our sport, and we've all seen clubs that have silly rules like single loading only, no drawing from the holster, no movement with a gun etc, etc, etc. The clubs often feel like they are already compromising their integrity by letting us "break" all those rules, so fighting them over something silly like having to bag between stages could push them over the edge.

In many cases, the only reason we're allowed to continue having matches is that we're often the only profitable part of a club, but that only holds so much weight.

There's a time to fight, and a time to build your membership numbers so that you can eventually have enough political clout within a club to change the local rules...you can't do that if you don't have access to a range. R,

[Chuck Anderson]

Linda is correct on this.

Rules 2.1.2 and 2.1.4 dictate safe angles of fire. If the club decides that is is unsafe to shoot into the sides,(mabye that berm is low, has too many rocks) there is nothing to prevent this. When you shoot indoors you can not sfely shoot into a wall. There is nothing in the rules to say you must allow it. It makes it a litle harder to do course design but thats all.

Tom

Sorry Tom, you're a bit off on this one. 2.1.2 and 2.1.4 cover construction of the stage, not competitor actions. If the club sets up the course to not allow the shooter to shoot at the side berms, maybe covering the wall or berm in no shoots, but the competitor still shoots there, there is no DQ. I mean intentionally, not an AD while loading or moving, just a plain shot. While the course design should take these angles into account, there is no rule allowing for a penalty if the shooter doesn't. Some clubs try to enforce this by saying a shot into the sideberm is a DQ. There is nothing to support that absent something else occurring.

As far as the local rules go, I hate to say it but I'd rather have fewer clubs abiding by the rules than more clubs doing what they want. This is a topic that has come up several times in my area. There are some clubs that have legitimate desires to restrict shooter actions. Unfortunately I can't support some of the solutions they want to use.

In this case, I don't really see anything that goes against the rules to do group bagging/unbagging. I think it's a rather silly way to go about business but I don't know that it isn't allowed either. The question I would ask is what they would do if you just tried walking around with your gun holstered. Would they DQ you for something? Or would they just ask you to leave the range and not come back.

As far as USPSA needing clubs more than clubs need USPSA. There are a lot of intangible benefits clubs get from USPSA that go beyond money. Most clubs I know have active shooters that provide a great deal of service to the host club, new props, targets, maintanence, enthusiastic support, publicity from media... Even beyond this we provide a basis for many ranges to justify their existence. In some jurisdictions a club with no LE and no Competitions occurring is viewed unfavorably.

TDZ. If you think clubs are just going to do what we say because we say it...well good luck with that. Every good USPSA club requires someone to be in contact with the host club. Explaining what we do, why we do it and why the rules need to be followed. There are reasons for all the rules. Explain why they should be followed. If we take the "stick your head in the sand" or "take my ball and go home" approach we will be short clubs to shoot at.

[Gary Stevens]

Neither pro or con, but I note that 10.4.1 states in part "...a shot that travels over a backstop, a berm,or any other direction specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe."

That might include side berms, FWIW.

Gary

[sperman]

I'm a member at the range James mentioned about not shooting into the side berms. We design stages that put all rounds into the back berm, but there is no DQ if you put one into the side berm.

[Aristotle]

Neither pro or con, but I note that 10.4.1 states in part "...a shot that travels over a backstop, a berm,or any other direction specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe."

That might include side berms, FWIW.

Gary

Also note, that the rest of that rule states

Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,

which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply).