midvalleyshooter Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 Before I give you my take on the USPSA/IPSC rule thing here is the ground work on my perspective. I am a local club shooter, I shot IPSC in the early 80's, USPSA # was/is A18642, I am not current. I did a little Cowboy action and for the last 3 plus years IDPA. So if I was king of IPSC/USPSA I would have 3 divisions: STOCK: Designed for off the shelf guns suitable for self defense. And maybe a 38 ounce max weight, no triggers lighter than 4 lbs, must fit in the box. no comps, iron sights only and if anyone wants your gun they may buy it for say $1000 after the match Also STOCK is now listed first because as KING I would emphasize stock class. By political wrangling and backslapping I would have all sponsored and pro shooters shoot this class and of course the primary Nationals would be for STOCK class All associated gear would be carry type like IDPA does BOX: These guns could have it all as long as they fit in the box. All the gear would be like stock class though Maybe a weight limit of 38 ounces would be good here to. Put those limited guns on a diet boys Might even enact a 10 rounds in the mag only rule This class would compete at the Nationals in a demphasized sense OPEN/EXPERIMENTAL: Would be pretty much the same as now. These guns would be allowed at the Nationals in a very demphasized way. I would dump the useless major/minor thing and set the single PF at 135. As King I limit round count in stages to 24, and urge many to be 12. I would ditch the USPSA classification system and ask the top 10 GM's to create an IDPA like 30 round classifier to classify shooters easily in one day. I also would ditch all current scoring systems and use time plus scoring. I would require all major tournaments to have a 50 yard standards stage. I would hire several large ex Navy Seal types to protect me from all the people I just enraged I would fortify my office and home. Also increase my life insurance I would buy a complete fire proof vehicle and warddrobe to protect me from the firestorm In short order My plan would create a great shooting sport or splinter IPSC/USPSA so badly, you tell me Cheers, Keith Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Norris Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 12 ROUNDS!!!! What the hell good is 12 ROUNDS!!! Personally, I have to disagree. Like it or not, IPSC is the F1 of shooting, with IDPA being the Nascar. Many of the inovations and techniques now showing up in so called serious training first showed up in IPSC. Just think, if TGO and Brian hadn't showed us a better way, we might still be stuck with Weaver. I don't think we should deemphasize anything, see what people want to shoot. USPSA is not self defense oriented anymore, nore IMO should it be. It's now a place to push the limits. On the other hand, I do like the PF idea, and having long range standards at major matches. Probably a good idea on the life insurace and bodyguard stuff too..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted December 12, 2001 Share Posted December 12, 2001 It sounds like IDPA with an open and box class. I agree with the PF, the standards are ok, but the rest is IDPA with a new name. The problem with the classifer the way you want is that you can practice it over and over. Lets face it the IDPA classifier is a joke already. I shot it (and poorly I might add) first time ever and made expert. The ex-seals still wouldn't save your butt. Someone would tag you from 800 yards. And of course we all know Marines eat seals for breakfast. Back to the drawing board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 The round count limit thing has proven to be a bad thing. Before it came in courses were open in design and pretty creative. And there wasn't really a big problem with round count anyways. I have the match book from the first North American Championship in '92 the average round count was about 18-20 with lots of little 6 and 8 rounders (and a couple of 2 round stages...cool stories there ) This was the year McCormick introduced the STI/SVI frame and Caspian came out with theirs..in fact TGO and Doug K were shooting them that year. Todd had won the US nationals the previous fall with a Para (before there was an open/limited separate match) and yet the courses were smaller than they are now. The big problem that occured up here was as soon as the limits were in place everyone thought they had to max out the round count on every stage. Our Nationals in '99 (Brandon, Manitoba) had 20 courses of fire..,.every field course was 28rounds, there were I believe 6 of them, and all the speed shoots were 16 rounds, the remaining 14 stages...no variation! Man was it boring, every stage was basically the same. I say remove the limits and recommend that stages be set up with some logic...somewhere along the line good course design got equated with max round count and who cares if its stupidly set up. We need to police ourselves. Congratulate creative course designers and chastise round count freaks...we allowed it to happen to ourselves. If matches consistantly suck at one range, stop going and tell them why. Go to matches that are skillfully designed. I'd rather practice 200 or 300 rounds in an afternoon than go stand at a match that runs behind because the match director thought it would be cool to put every target the club had out on the range. I've skipped our provincials because of that before and will likely do so again this year, as the club that is doing them is terrible at setting up matches, way too much on the range with way too little skill required (go figure its set up by the same person that dreamed up HFX scoring). Rant mode off... Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 I'm afraid the stock class would create a bigger monster than open that you're trying to discourage. In any sport a true stock class is the hardest to regulate. I'd love to see 50 yds come back though. JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 If you want a true stock class, it would have to be like the IROC or Skip Barber Pro Series. Nascar isn't really all the stock anymore. With the IROC and Skip Barber series, the promoter supplies the cars. So with shooting, the promoter would supply identical guns and ammo for all the competitors. By doing it this way, you completely eliminate the equipment from the competition. This would force the shooter to adapt to the gun being used at the match. The military academies have a match where gun companies sponsor the stages. Each stage has it's own unique weapon from each company. None of the cadets have ever shot any of the firearms, making them adapt as they go along. I think this would be fun. Steel Challenge is doing something similar with the new shotgun event. SC will be supplying the shotgun and ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Kelly Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 (If matches consistantly suck at one range, stop going and tell them why.) by Pat Pat, I have to disagree with this part of your post. I have only been shooting IPSC for two years. The problim with stages can be fixed by volunteering to set a stage. Other people might be inspired and begin to use there imagination and come up with some great stages. Just my .02cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 yeah I thought so too, but I've set up matches up to and including level 3's, helped out at other local clubs, helped fix stages at matches etc. Unfortunatly, while I've always gotten good comments on my stages, most designers take offence if you point out ANY problems with theirs. And as soon as I move on the stages revert to hi round count crap. I've only ever seen one guy who was so good at stage design that I though targets could be added and not removed to make it better. So now I think I'll just save my money for the guys who take the time to set up a quality match, and practice the rest of the time, and maybe try IDPA ...lol Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 "If I were King of IPSC...." Well, I think the few things I'd fiddle with would be: Calculate the time factors to give us much the same shooting pace and problem, then convert the scoring to Time Plus. None of this half a second or a full second stuff, add a tenth of a second for a C and two tenths for a D, and a full second for misses and no-shoots. Shoot your stage, add the penalties (time) and scoring additions, and that's your stage time and match factor. I'd only change two things in the Division. One, I'd allow .355" bullets at major for Limited and L10, only if they were a specific caliber such as the old .356TSW, and only with 126mm mags. And I'd split Revolver into Open and Stock. Two rules for Stock, no comps or ports, and no red dot sights. As for course design, the Sweeney Rules would be: 1) "Any stage with more than one target that suffers pasters blown off from shooting requires summary flogging of the stage designer." 2) "All-steel stages would be allowed." 3) "There cannot be less than one target past 30 yards for each of three field stages, and must be at least one past 40 in a Standards stage." 4) Drop the "Failure to engage" penalty, and if a stage can be advantageously gamed by not shooting a target, drop it from the match. Also publish the name of the designer so all can know who screwed up. As for round count, let the market decide. If more rounds brings more shooters, fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 "If I were King Of IPSC" I'd make one new rule. NO MORE RULE CHANGES I kinda like things the way they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 If I was king of IPSC I would abdicate immeadiately. The one think IPSC is screaming out for is more shooter involvement in decision making and less kings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted December 13, 2001 Share Posted December 13, 2001 2) "All-steel stages would be allowed." All steel stages are allowed now, the only rule is that there must be at least one pepper popper to differentiate between power factors Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Pat, I thought you had to have at least one paper. But, according to 4.3.1.3 you are right. Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 One paper or one popper..its needed because of the separation of PF and either will do Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Philip nailed it exactly. I wish I had said that. JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 Yep all steel is allowed. At our last match we had a "field of steel". We had 35 pieces of steel setup and a par time of 20 seconds........Now that was fun and interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 14, 2001 Share Posted December 14, 2001 If we ran a stage with 35 steel and nothing else on it, we'd find that range overrun by "practicing" shooters for weeks afterwards. 12-15 poppers or plates per stage is already enough to have some of them wetting their pants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted December 17, 2001 Author Share Posted December 17, 2001 Hey thanks for not flaming me too badly for my Ideas It was all in good fun, sort of a turning upside down of the recognition of the divisions. I really have no stake in USPSA/IPSC nowadays. To quote Cooper, "The past is like another country." Plus all of us old don't practice anymore types have IDPA Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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