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IPSC vs USPSA Rules


Julien Boit

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Hey all,

I'd be interested in your opinion about the differences between ipsc and uspsa.

I recently read in Voigt's column in Front sight that "his" view of the sport would look much like "ipsc style".

What all of you think about it ?

Will there be , one day, a global rulebook for worlwide ipsc shooters ?

DVC

Julien :-)

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My unfortunate experience is that the people writing the rules in IPSC world body have a problem comprehending the current ones or why they exist. Some of the new rule book is excellent but there are flaws, perhaps because the writes hardly ever shoot, so they don't see the trends. USPSA seems at least to attempt to correct or interpret the rules and correct some of these flaws.

Pat

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I've just read Michael Voight's article in Front Sight and agree with USPSA's attempts to maintain the sports original intent, however I don't think the USPSA's  philosophical differences justify the 6" limited gun which if it becomes standard will ensure the two sides are never unified. The magazine length difference could be standardised by a capacity limit or adopting the US 140mm with minimal cost to competitors, though I'm not sure how mush desire there is to do so.

For me the biggest difference between the two organisations is the fact that one is lead by a shooter and the other a R/O.

P.D.

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I wouldn't like to see appearing 6" limited guns but , I 'll sure like the 140 mm rule.

What's strange is that USPSA shooters have to change a lot of things when shooting an IPSC "ruled" match such as WS or European Championship: bullet weight, power factor, mag length, sometimes the gun itself ( I think of slide lightened limited guns).

DVC

Julien :-)

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God, I just don't get the big deal about the 6" Limited gun. Okay, so Robbie kicked ass at Area One with his 6" Springfield Trophy Match in Lim-10. Is that why people are freaking out? You know what....he still would've done the same thing with a 5". I'm sure there are advantages and disadvantages to the concept, it's not such an overwhelming advantage that them that's got are all gonna whip up on them that don't.

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I think my stage times are about 25% of Robbie's on average.  Ergo:  My 24" Springfield Ultra Longslide Super Mega Combat special is now on order.  

Looks like I just bought my slot to the Nationals.  ;)

Yeah...right....

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Duane,

giving up the least advantage is both physically and psychologically damaging. I agree with you about Robbie but the reality is that half the world have paid out some big$ ($5KNZ for my ST/V) for gear with which they may feel disadvantaged if USPSA and IPSC are reconciled to the 6" gun.  

Similarly I shot my 17rd IPSC mags at the D.C. and despite some big stages there was only 1 that I felt disadvantaged against the 21rds USPSA mags, but I wouldn't go without one next time.

Perception is everything.

Michael Voights argument in Front Sight could equally be used to oppose the 6"(or more!!)gun.

The logistics of imposing the IPSC mag length rule are all but impossible so I would suggest either 140mm mags or a 16rd mag limit and guns without mags to fit the box.

I feel the guns and gear rules should be , where legislation allows, universal and how each region applies its match philosophies should be up to them.

P.D.

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Hello folks,

Before I give you my take on the USPSA/IPSC rule thing here is the ground work on my perspective. I am a local club shooter, I shot IPSC in the early 80's, USPSA # was/is A18642, I am not current. I did a little Cowboy action and for the last 3 plus years IDPA.

So if I was king of IPSC/USPSA I would have 3 divisions:

OPEN: Anything goes and may the best person win.

BOX: Just like open but it must fit in the box.

STOCK: You buy an off the shelf gun and use 10 round mags. This class would need rules so a CCW could win.

I would dump the useless major/minor thing and set the single PF at 135.

As King I would piss off all run and gunners by limiting round count in stages to 24, and urge many to be 12.

I would ditch the USPSA classification system and ask the top 10 GM's to create an IDPA like 30 round classifier to classify shooters easily in one day.

I also would ditch all current scoring systems and use time plus scoring.

I would require all major tournaments to have a 50 yard standards stage.

I would hire several large ex Navy Seal types to protect me from all the people I just enraged

I would fortify my office and home. Also increase my life insurance

I would buy a complete fire proof vehicle and warddrobe to protect me from the firestorm

In short order My plan would create a great shooting sport or splinter IPSC/USPSA so badly, you tell me

Cheers,

Keith Paul

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As King of IPSC/USPSA I am updating the above info on My 3 divisions

STOCK: Designed for off the shelf guns suitable for self defense. And maybe a 38 ounce max weight, no triggers lighter than 4 lbs, must fit in the box. no comps, iron sights only and if anyone wants your gun they may buy it for say $1000 after the match Also STOCK is now listed first because as KING I would emphasize stock class. By political wrangling and backslapping I would have all sponsored and pro shooters shoot this class and of course the primary Nationals would be for STOCK class All associated gear would be carry type like IDPA does

BOX: These guns could have it all as long as they fit in the box. All the gear would be like stock class though Maybe a weight limit of 38 ounces would be good here to. Put those limited guns on a diet boys  Might even enact a 10 rounds in the mag only rule This class would compete at the Nationals in a demphasized sense

OPEN/EXPERIMENTAL: Would be pretty much the same as now. These guns would be allowed at the Nationals in a very demphasized way.

STAGE DESIGN: Two types would exist: Standards for various skill tests and defensive scenario based encounter simulations.

As King I would put IPSC/USPSA in touch with its founding principles. Do they still have the principles in the rulebook? My 1981 IPSC rule book has them

Respectfully yours,

Keith

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  • 2 weeks later...

See, I like simple, two classes: Open class-if you want to modify the gun in any way...and anything goes ...size/optics/weight etc. or:   Stock/production..as it comes in the box..no comp/optics...minimum pull weight...fit in the box...and      minimum number produced.  

Problem now is everybody wants a class for HIS gun (or hers) next we'll have a class for guns with only a trigger job, then one for guns with only a mag well, then a S&W or Glock only class...where does it end? I'd be happy if they got rid of all of it except one class either Open or limited would be left...use the rules for that class as they stand now and just ditch the rest ...one class...one match winner take all

Pat

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Oh and it appears that there may be some upset with my comment about the rule writers not shooting enough (Doug)...well I still think its true, everybody likes to run around and pat each other on the back and say wonderful job after a match but nobody has the guts to point out the problems that need to be fixed. The rule makers need to get out to more big matches. Not just local ones, and not just their Nationals...Go to the U.S. Nationals with an open mind, yes its not perfect, but look at the parts that do, look at the stage designs, look at how the US version of the rules is applied, don't just write it off because they are going 'against the world body' Both organozations have a lot to offer if they can get past the us vs. them crap.

-ditch the round count rules let the matches sort out what they want...fix it when it is sent in for approval...if it doesn't make sense..have them change it. It used to be done that way

-get rid of the current holster retention stage garbage...go back to the standing jump. Then start all stages with the gun loaded

-streamline the divisions Open and production...Open for the guys that want to modify their guns and production for those that don't, and keep the cost down

-stay with the current scoring system it works...and its about the fairest system for what we do.

-make a minimum safe distance for targets (paper)..we have one for steel...I can't see what skill is tested by blasting all the pasters off a target....The minimum distance a bullet can strike the ground before a DQ is 3m...but that rule has to be ignored if a target is closer than that...Is it safe to shoot the dirt 6" in front of your toe or isn't it...make up your minds.

I could rant on but I'd like to see if there is any responses to this :)

Pat

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Pat,

Two thumbs up on ditching the classes.  The plethora of classes and divisions has made IPSC non-competitive at a club level.  The competition gets so diluted that everyone becomes a winner.  It's ridiculous.  Either you're the top dog or you're not.  I'm not the top dog, so I damned well shouldn't be getting a ribbon like I do every time.  I'm probably going to shoot my production gun in Limited Class just so I won't be rewarded for my mediocrity any more.  

I with you on the rest of the issues too.  Especially the round count.  Why are we limiting ourselves?  What's so wrong with the occasional 40-50 round stage?  A 50 round stage might force people to make real compromises for a change.

Has the King left the building yet?  :)

Eric

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating 50 round stages,  my favorites are 14 -16 rnd stages...But if you are going to have a large stage, it better make sense. Don't just throw up 25 targets and say 'look at my cool stage, its got 50 rounds. Make it reasonable mix up the target banks.

The funny thing is before the round count limits we weren't seeing huge stages the '92 North Americans stages were prior to the limits and after Hi cap guns came into the game (P-9, Para, McCormick, Caspian all made appearances)

In order the stages were: 6,6,36,10,10,6,6,6,9,26,6,5,22,15,6,6,6,10,2,2,6,30,8,6,6,6,10,11,6,10,...total 30 stages..only 6 were over 10 rounds and then only 4 were more than 20 and two 30 or more

Trust me it was still a fun match and I shot it with a Glock 17

Pat

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Pat you make a Lot of good points, I nominate you for king of IPSC

Just about every 40+ round stage I have seen involves blasting a multitude of layered targets. I just don't understand it. Appartently the volume of rounds put down range equates to a good stage for some folks.

I shoot IDPA for the simplicity of equipment. I like to shoot different pistols: Kimber 45, Glock 17 and 34, all pretty much stock. I like bladetech holsters because they are simple and they work. With such a setup a win is possible at any IDPA match anywhere, if the shooter does their part. To my knowledge that is not true any longer of most IPSC matches.

Our little club gives away no prizes. But we usally provide a hot lunch The shooters provide the best prize of all, friendship. When the trophies and plaques are long forgotten stacked in cardboard boxes in the attic, friendships continue.

Happy Holidays,

Keith

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Pat, & MVS,

I don't want EVERY stage to be a hose-a-thon, but for those who have the real estate, some pretty creative stages can be set up.  I'm just opposed to arbitrary limitations.  I like that variety thing.

MVS,

I think people still have a lot of misperceptions about IPSC.  Maybe it's just my club, but I just started shooting IPSC in August.  At my last match, I shot (and won - yawn)  in Production Class, but would have came in second place in Limited-10, had I registered as such.  

My equipment:  a G19 with an 8 lb NY1 trigger, a hacked up Uncle Mike's Kydex holster and a $5 mag pouch.  The other mags I had to tuck in my belt.  I'm not trying to be a braggart, but my point is that I have some of the shittiest gear at the range, but I'm doing well in a Division that my gun is totaly outclassed in.  Do I think I'm going to beat the GM's with thier open blasters?  Of course not.  Win Limited?  Hell no.  I just think some people are really deluding themselves in the "equipment race."  The people beating me every week do so because they're better shooters, not because they have better guns.

Eric

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No delusions here my friend, the best shooter wins. Robbie would beat me with a Webley break top revolver with a 20 pound trigger pull in a 50 round course even if I had a scoped open blaster with big sticks

By the way congratulations on your success and may Santa bring you some better gear

Merry Christmas,

Keith

PS I recently found my vintage copy of the IPSC, United States region handbook dated June 13, 1981. Foreward by Jake Jatras, intro by Ken Hackathorn. The rule book is 46 pages long, 10 of which are courses of fire. A youngish Bill Wilson is shown on page 41 running with a long slide .45.

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Pat,

I have to disagree - respectfully, I hope - with the "get rid of the classes" thing. You do that and you're right back to the equipment race where you've GOT to have a high-cap .40 to win in Limited - because Limited in the only uncomped division. Singlestack .45, Glock, revolver - you're out of it.  I got back into IPSC when I heard about the introduction of Limited-10. If someone running another single-stack beats me, okay. But don't buy the victory - or make me do it.

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Ahh but remember, I'm saying get rid of limited too..only open and production. Its only a matter of time before some sort of equipment race hits lim. 10 I know for a fact that the second place at the Nationals was won by a Para...hes a buddy of mine..and I'm pretty sure that Tom C. used some sort of hicap 40 frame to win (thats what I saw him shoot last) Then theres Robbies 6" decked out lim 10 gun...how 'bout a Springfield Armory 'Operator' with the ultra heavy dustcover...maybe STI/SVI will revive the single stack grip for their hicap frames (with the HUGE) magwell. THe gun to use NOW in limited 10 is a hicap .40 frame fully decked out like a normal limited gun but with 10 round only mags . Its the exact same but with only a capacity limit...Since we've had 10 rounds only up here for awhile, trust me the equipment race is alive and well.

What I am saying is have two divisions max..one for guys that want to mod their guns and one for those that don't (meaning no mods whatsoever ...to keep the race out..its factory or nothing)

Open is the only comped division all the rest are basically the same rules now except for production

Beside Open has been stagnant for awhile (with perhaps the exception of the SVI IMM guns)  not much race left there. Most of the equipment race the last few years has been in limited div. Open guns are basically the same as they were in '93 when the C-More made its debut.

Pat

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Pat,

I accept that my 40 is effectively an open gun, but I was drawn to the division without optics, and with guns fitting the box. To me those rules are about the only link left to the practical origins of our sport.  

As for Production, to mandate compromising the ergonomics and function of a 'defensive firearm' (I know its a game) is IMHO crazy.

P.D.

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I don't have that much of a problem with eliminating comps and optis and going with limited rules for Open...but there would still be only two divisions "Limited' then and Production Limited as it is now...anything goes but comps and optics...and production..no mods

Pat

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